Shannon's post made me want to talk about communication issues. I'm on a couple of other list groups and it seems that we repeatedly have trouble in mixed groups understanding each other. As most of you know I've been working on a book since last year entitled, "A Matter of Perspective." It is BECAUSE of this difficulty to understand each other that I started writing it. It's because of the lack of compassion I see time and again from both sides of the fence because of our inability to comprehend each other's plight or position. It makes me sad and crazy. I've recently (again) found myself beating my head against the wall trying to convince someone of something that I know as fact and have experienced first hand, yet they keep insisting that I'm WRONG. How can I be wrong if it's happened to me? I don't get that thinking?
Anyhoo, as a therapist I recognize the issue of communication as being primary in so many relationships, whether they are wife to husband, friend to friend, mother to daughter, etc... If people can't communicate to where they can understand where the other person is coming from or hear what they're saying, how can we ever get along? The neat thing about this issue is that all is takes is the willingness of those involved to learn to do things a new way. If the old way isn't working then why not take the risk and learn to do it differently? God knows, it could save one of the most important relationships in your life. The other thing I want to add is that there's more to good communications skills than just speaking or talking. It involves the ability to "listen" and hear what someone else is saying too. If you can't try to understand what someone else is saying or possibly feeling than you will remain at a stalemate position with no one getting anywhere. This takes and open mind and willingness. Just my two cents as it's been bugging me alot in my own life lately. My husband and are I working on this same issue in therapy and actually making progress. We both had to become willing to stop being stubborn and open to having a different perspective. It always comes back to that.
Kay(SO)
A side note to our one of our leaders:
Shannon, I hope that you take all of the posts that were sent to you as love and support and get the help you need with communicating your wants, needs, thoughts and feelings.
COMMUNICATION ISSUES
Moderators: KimberlyS, Eileen (SO)
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Kay(SO)
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Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
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Kay,
I heard on the radio just the other day that geneiologist have discovered that there is only a 1% difference between the human geneome and that of apes!
However, there is a 2% difference between human males and human females and according to science that is a hugh, hugh difference. We are closer to apes than to each other by 100%. And we wonder why we have trouble communicating???????
Good luck with your book.
Virginia
I heard on the radio just the other day that geneiologist have discovered that there is only a 1% difference between the human geneome and that of apes!
However, there is a 2% difference between human males and human females and according to science that is a hugh, hugh difference. We are closer to apes than to each other by 100%. And we wonder why we have trouble communicating???????
Good luck with your book.
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Loretta Ann
- Permanently Banned
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- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:30 pm
- Location: Vancouver, Canada
Hi Kay,
I find your post an interesting read. (very insightful). I spent a number of years of my journey wondering if there was any other way to learn what was wrong with the way I thought, by any other means than through personal pain.
It is my belief that until one reaches a certain place (or for want of a better word stage) in life, they are destined to experience pain over and over again, until one finally accepts that there is something that needs to be looked at. And for me that was not a one time experience, even after I became aware of this.
But now it has been years since I have experienced that kind of pain. And I am now finding that I can learn without going through the pain.
I view mans in built desire to avoid pain as one of the worst enemies in life, that stunts personal growth.
And that is why you will never hear me say or support a post, that has anything to do with not ever saying something that could hurt someone feelings. There are times when I will intentionally do just that.
Personal pain is a motivator, and motivates a person, positively or negatively depending on how one chooses to deal with the pain.
Love Darlene.
I find your post an interesting read. (very insightful). I spent a number of years of my journey wondering if there was any other way to learn what was wrong with the way I thought, by any other means than through personal pain.
It is my belief that until one reaches a certain place (or for want of a better word stage) in life, they are destined to experience pain over and over again, until one finally accepts that there is something that needs to be looked at. And for me that was not a one time experience, even after I became aware of this.
But now it has been years since I have experienced that kind of pain. And I am now finding that I can learn without going through the pain.
I view mans in built desire to avoid pain as one of the worst enemies in life, that stunts personal growth.
And that is why you will never hear me say or support a post, that has anything to do with not ever saying something that could hurt someone feelings. There are times when I will intentionally do just that.
Personal pain is a motivator, and motivates a person, positively or negatively depending on how one chooses to deal with the pain.
Love Darlene.
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Kay(SO)
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Good post Darlene and I agree with what you said about pain being a motivator. It's kind of like in 12-step programs when they talk about someone hitting bottom. Change doesn't seem to happen until someone is fairly well hurting or beat up and they are forced to do something differently. There's also that old definition of insanity; doing something over and over again, expecting a different result. Hellllloooo? Talk about banging one's head against the wall! Anyhoo, good post sweetie.
Kay(SO)
Kay(SO)
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Sally
- We Will Never Forget You - Rest in Peace
- Posts: 630
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:33 am
- Location: N.S.W. Australia
Communication issues
Lack of communication within realtionships can often be as a result of one party being defensive because of the threatening attitude of the other. I'm not referring to physical threat, it can just be caused by the superior attitude of the other person. People also often hear only what they wish to hear, especially in highly charged discussions and therefore they fail to ever see the other persons point of view and indeed some people are just not interested in another idea or opinion or point of view, so quality communication will never exist between the two.
Honest communication between two people can break down also because some topics become 'forbidden topics' by one person and the 'we won't talk about that' attitude is adopted, therefore the topic is never dealt with as it should be. These topics can include, finances, sex, drinking problems etc. Communication also breaks down due to one person 'playing games' or also the 'if it weren't for you' syndrome, or the 'if you loved me thingy' or hostile humour, or competition between the two or just plain argumentativeness and a bombastic attitude.
What is essential is that two people can realise and identify the barriers which are causing the lack of communication and both being prepared to adress them with an open mind and open heart. People need to hear and listen to what the other is saying in a relaxed atmosphere and with genuine empathy and not take each other for granted. Of course so much conflict and lack of communication between some people is due to excess alcohol by one or both parties and this will always be a no win situation as any form of communication will never exist.
There will always be unavoidable conflicts in any relationship, as no two people will ever think the same all the time or want the same things. Some people have to win every conflict, even to the point where they become deceptive in their methods of winning and this of course only sets the stage for deeper conflict and complete lack of communication now and in the future. Some people need to work on developing a creative situation whereby both can approach a conflict in a point of view with an open mind so each can get some of their way. Obviously if one gives in without a whimper on every occaison then this only leads to emotional problems within, which compound as time goes by. Nobody likes to be brow beaten all the time.
I wholeheartedly agree that sometimes we have to open our mind to the fact there is just never one single way. No one is always right and we have to give other peoples' ideas and opinions the respect they deserve. If we develop the idea that things have to be one way and never somewhere in between or both ways at once, we will probably never see things as they really are. Many people believe there is just one single reason or way for some things and of course our culture then teaches us that when things go wrong we have to look for a scapegoat. We hate to admit we may have been wrong or it was our fault. We really need to develop an open mind and open heart so that we can learn new things and new ways, whilst being courageous and forgiving and taking care to be discerning and objective. We can treat people's ideas and opinions with respect and dignity whilst all the time subjecting their ideas and opinions to scrutiny, this then gives us the opportunity to learn and expand our knowledge. If we assume we know it all before we know each and every fact pertinent to the discussion then we are only fooling ourselves, nobody else. If we avoid drawing harsh conclusions and take the time to develop a fair and reasonable comparison of ideas and opinions then we lay the foundation for open and honest communication in a compassionate atmosphere, which in turn leads to achievement.
If we can develop into our personality the ability to be truly open minded and never to cling on to just one viewpoint and entertain numerous points of view whilst acknowledging that the truth may also lie somewhere beyond all these viewpoints, then we develop the ability to see things as they may be or truly are. We can often pay less attention to the little things in life than we should and often the little things count for far more than we give them credit for. We can often get caught up in the meaningless things in life, such as useless conflicts with others, and we waste so much time which could be applied to enjoying the better things in our lives. We can get caught up in thinking that the boundaries are absolute, especially regarding ourselves, which in turn sometimes leads us to feel isolated and alone and we can be reluctant to abandon this point of view, especially regarding ourself. We may at times feel that if we expand our limited thinking then we will compromise our sense of identity. To begin to communicate with others in a way which will enhance our life we have to first expand our thinking, push the barriers back and not just hear them talking but listen to what they are saying with an open mind and open heart and not just hear the words, but give due consideration to the meaning behind what's being said and then we may just learn something of benefit which maybe we thought we knew, but didn't.
Kind Regards,
Sally.
Honest communication between two people can break down also because some topics become 'forbidden topics' by one person and the 'we won't talk about that' attitude is adopted, therefore the topic is never dealt with as it should be. These topics can include, finances, sex, drinking problems etc. Communication also breaks down due to one person 'playing games' or also the 'if it weren't for you' syndrome, or the 'if you loved me thingy' or hostile humour, or competition between the two or just plain argumentativeness and a bombastic attitude.
What is essential is that two people can realise and identify the barriers which are causing the lack of communication and both being prepared to adress them with an open mind and open heart. People need to hear and listen to what the other is saying in a relaxed atmosphere and with genuine empathy and not take each other for granted. Of course so much conflict and lack of communication between some people is due to excess alcohol by one or both parties and this will always be a no win situation as any form of communication will never exist.
There will always be unavoidable conflicts in any relationship, as no two people will ever think the same all the time or want the same things. Some people have to win every conflict, even to the point where they become deceptive in their methods of winning and this of course only sets the stage for deeper conflict and complete lack of communication now and in the future. Some people need to work on developing a creative situation whereby both can approach a conflict in a point of view with an open mind so each can get some of their way. Obviously if one gives in without a whimper on every occaison then this only leads to emotional problems within, which compound as time goes by. Nobody likes to be brow beaten all the time.
I wholeheartedly agree that sometimes we have to open our mind to the fact there is just never one single way. No one is always right and we have to give other peoples' ideas and opinions the respect they deserve. If we develop the idea that things have to be one way and never somewhere in between or both ways at once, we will probably never see things as they really are. Many people believe there is just one single reason or way for some things and of course our culture then teaches us that when things go wrong we have to look for a scapegoat. We hate to admit we may have been wrong or it was our fault. We really need to develop an open mind and open heart so that we can learn new things and new ways, whilst being courageous and forgiving and taking care to be discerning and objective. We can treat people's ideas and opinions with respect and dignity whilst all the time subjecting their ideas and opinions to scrutiny, this then gives us the opportunity to learn and expand our knowledge. If we assume we know it all before we know each and every fact pertinent to the discussion then we are only fooling ourselves, nobody else. If we avoid drawing harsh conclusions and take the time to develop a fair and reasonable comparison of ideas and opinions then we lay the foundation for open and honest communication in a compassionate atmosphere, which in turn leads to achievement.
If we can develop into our personality the ability to be truly open minded and never to cling on to just one viewpoint and entertain numerous points of view whilst acknowledging that the truth may also lie somewhere beyond all these viewpoints, then we develop the ability to see things as they may be or truly are. We can often pay less attention to the little things in life than we should and often the little things count for far more than we give them credit for. We can often get caught up in the meaningless things in life, such as useless conflicts with others, and we waste so much time which could be applied to enjoying the better things in our lives. We can get caught up in thinking that the boundaries are absolute, especially regarding ourselves, which in turn sometimes leads us to feel isolated and alone and we can be reluctant to abandon this point of view, especially regarding ourself. We may at times feel that if we expand our limited thinking then we will compromise our sense of identity. To begin to communicate with others in a way which will enhance our life we have to first expand our thinking, push the barriers back and not just hear them talking but listen to what they are saying with an open mind and open heart and not just hear the words, but give due consideration to the meaning behind what's being said and then we may just learn something of benefit which maybe we thought we knew, but didn't.
Kind Regards,
Sally.
Watch nature, because it’s our greatest teacher, it moves and flows and moves on again. We can never be free until we disengage, so allow life to flow as you find it. The way it is, is the way it is.
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Elandra
- Miss Crystal Goddess
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:46 pm
i think a lot of the reasons we have trouble comunicating stems from lack of respect, when a couple first meet and fall in love, they feel euphoria, because the relationship is new, the respect is strong, as the relationship grows, they start to lose that, and careing how the other feels starts to dwindle, what i think we need to remember, is that life is such a gift, that we are basicly walking miracles to behold!! and that means everyone, excluding no one. Weather you believe in Adam and Eve, evolution, or evolution of the soul, we all come from the same place, arguing, dislikeing someone is basicly makeing a statment to God, that you do not like an aspect of him/her 
or ourselfs. So if we change the way we look at everyone, seeing them as being important, special, miracles of life, disbelieving illusion, and seeing them in the light only, we conect to them, feel a higher sence of belonging, understanding, and love.
I think the dreaded ego gets in the way so often also causeing problems with comunicateing, there is no shame in saying sorry, even if for you you are right, validateing the others feelings even though you are right, will highten the others energy,and without trying to validate yourself, there hightened energy will allow them to see your point. And if they dont get it right away, they will at some point, maybe LoL, What goes out comes back in.
When a baby is born, there minds cant think, but you look at them and u can see so much feeling and energy, once they start thinking and speaking, they start to build there egos, every bad thing that happens to them, the memorie is stored in there fields, there minds, and they will act out over and over again, untill they start watching thier actions, saying i had enough, and wanting the repeated cycles to end. The best way to heal yourself is to watch your reactions with others, if one sets you off, there is a good chance that you are acting out from a past hurt of some kind, defending yourself is a sure sign. Everyone makes mistakes, to error is human, to forgive is devine, forgive yourself for makeing mistakes and its easier to forgive others.
What might be right for one may well not be for the other, they may be wrong, but in the stage in there life and the things they are going threw, that we can not see because we havent spent a lifetime in there shoes, to them they are right. Trying to make them see your views will only spark there egos, because they may not be ready to to face it yet, so the ego will go into overdrive, the best way to help them is to see them for what they realy are, and not for how there acting now at this stage of there lives. That understanding and compation, is healing to them without haveing to tell them there wrong, if it doesnt happen now, when there ready they may remember how good you were to them and see for themselves, when they are ready and the time is right they will see.
Powerful words one once said, that has changed my life are... "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do". Forgiveness, and seeing the light in others only, disbelieveing illusion, is liberateing and healing. Then you can realy listen, see there point of view, and respect it.
or ourselfs. So if we change the way we look at everyone, seeing them as being important, special, miracles of life, disbelieving illusion, and seeing them in the light only, we conect to them, feel a higher sence of belonging, understanding, and love. I think the dreaded ego gets in the way so often also causeing problems with comunicateing, there is no shame in saying sorry, even if for you you are right, validateing the others feelings even though you are right, will highten the others energy,and without trying to validate yourself, there hightened energy will allow them to see your point. And if they dont get it right away, they will at some point, maybe LoL, What goes out comes back in.
When a baby is born, there minds cant think, but you look at them and u can see so much feeling and energy, once they start thinking and speaking, they start to build there egos, every bad thing that happens to them, the memorie is stored in there fields, there minds, and they will act out over and over again, untill they start watching thier actions, saying i had enough, and wanting the repeated cycles to end. The best way to heal yourself is to watch your reactions with others, if one sets you off, there is a good chance that you are acting out from a past hurt of some kind, defending yourself is a sure sign. Everyone makes mistakes, to error is human, to forgive is devine, forgive yourself for makeing mistakes and its easier to forgive others.
What might be right for one may well not be for the other, they may be wrong, but in the stage in there life and the things they are going threw, that we can not see because we havent spent a lifetime in there shoes, to them they are right. Trying to make them see your views will only spark there egos, because they may not be ready to to face it yet, so the ego will go into overdrive, the best way to help them is to see them for what they realy are, and not for how there acting now at this stage of there lives. That understanding and compation, is healing to them without haveing to tell them there wrong, if it doesnt happen now, when there ready they may remember how good you were to them and see for themselves, when they are ready and the time is right they will see.
Powerful words one once said, that has changed my life are... "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do". Forgiveness, and seeing the light in others only, disbelieveing illusion, is liberateing and healing. Then you can realy listen, see there point of view, and respect it.
Love And Light Too All 
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Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
I can only assume that when we use the term "communication" we speak of verbal communication??!! In my defense, I, in another life had a job that required me to travel extensively, so I was not home much. My wife did not complain when we moved three times just to follow her mother and father so she could be close to her mother. (I swear they never cut the cord when she was born and it would only streach so far.) Each time we moved it was to a nicer home in a nicer neighborhood and she never lacked for anything that she wanted. When I was home I did a lot of things that (in my opinion) went totally unnoticed, little things, like cleaning and washing her Jag. Yard work which she absolutely refuses to do. Spot painting around the house, my own laundry and ironing, etc. I did this because they were things I knew she did not want to do or would not do and because I wanted to help her out all I could, because I loved her and cared about her. Now I am seen as some type of evil, self-centered socio-path that is a perverted crossdresser! Sure we live (I) since she has moved in with her 80+ year old parents live in a $300,000.00 home with a 23' boat that is paid for along with a Ford Expedition and Jag that are both paid for, no bills and I am evil to provide all this for her - but the fact that I did not communicate - whatever the hell that means, with her!!!!!! Oh the trips to Hawaii, cruises down the west coast of Mexico, New Orleans, San Fransisco, Dallas, Washington, Seattle, Orlando, etc, etc, ets, don't count for anything - the more I think about it the madder I get!!!!! Its enough to make one give up crossdressing - well maybe I won't go that far!
Sorry for the rant, but I am a wee bit perturbed about all this communication - crap!!!!
Virginia
Sorry for the rant, but I am a wee bit perturbed about all this communication - crap!!!!
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Oregon (SO)
- Miss Sapphire Goddess
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:27 pm
- Location: Canada
Hi Virginia,
I just wanted to say that I have read your other posts about your marriage. I really feel for your situation. The only thing I can say is so many people do not appreaciate the blessings that they have in life, whether that be a good job, a loving and non-abusive spouse, and a roof over their heads. Many women have never experinced a crappy husband or growing up in poverty, so thye figure that the world (or their husband) owes them all the nicer things in life. An when I read of all the things you hvae given not only of yourself, but all the hard work you must have had to do in order to provide these thigns it makes my stomach turn.
I had a (verbally) abusive husband and I grew up very poor. And I never had the luxery of living in a home that did not have wheels or anything that my family owned when I was growing up. I also had to move alot as well (maybe 15 times during high shcool not even counting grade school).
New clothing for the school year? Not in my world. I started working at age 16 and carried 2 jobs during the summer and while in college. I never had anythign handed to me on a gold/silver/ or even glass platter.
It does make me sad when someone is blessed with the nicities of life and then bites the hand that feeds them.
I now don't have the same life I used to. I have a husband (maybe just like you) who does like to provide nicer things for both of us and our child. I thank god everyday for having him.
I know it is hard to look at the silver lining, but maybe just maybe this (your divorce) is the bset thing that ever happened to you.
good luck
kathy in canada
I just wanted to say that I have read your other posts about your marriage. I really feel for your situation. The only thing I can say is so many people do not appreaciate the blessings that they have in life, whether that be a good job, a loving and non-abusive spouse, and a roof over their heads. Many women have never experinced a crappy husband or growing up in poverty, so thye figure that the world (or their husband) owes them all the nicer things in life. An when I read of all the things you hvae given not only of yourself, but all the hard work you must have had to do in order to provide these thigns it makes my stomach turn.
I had a (verbally) abusive husband and I grew up very poor. And I never had the luxery of living in a home that did not have wheels or anything that my family owned when I was growing up. I also had to move alot as well (maybe 15 times during high shcool not even counting grade school).
New clothing for the school year? Not in my world. I started working at age 16 and carried 2 jobs during the summer and while in college. I never had anythign handed to me on a gold/silver/ or even glass platter.
It does make me sad when someone is blessed with the nicities of life and then bites the hand that feeds them.
I now don't have the same life I used to. I have a husband (maybe just like you) who does like to provide nicer things for both of us and our child. I thank god everyday for having him.
I know it is hard to look at the silver lining, but maybe just maybe this (your divorce) is the bset thing that ever happened to you.
good luck
kathy in canada
Virginia wrote:I can only assume that when we use the term "communication" we speak of verbal communication??!! In my defense, I, in another life had a job that required me to travel extensively, so I was not home much. My wife did not complain when we moved three times just to follow her mother and father so she could be close to her mother. (I swear they never cut the cord when she was born and it would only streach so far.) Each time we moved it was to a nicer home in a nicer neighborhood and she never lacked for anything that she wanted. When I was home I did a lot of things that (in my opinion) went totally unnoticed, little things, like cleaning and washing her Jag. Yard work which she absolutely refuses to do. Spot painting around the house, my own laundry and ironing, etc. I did this because they were things I knew she did not want to do or would not do and because I wanted to help her out all I could, because I loved her and cared about her. Now I am seen as some type of evil, self-centered socio-path that is a perverted crossdresser! Sure we live (I) since she has moved in with her 80+ year old parents live in a $300,000.00 home with a 23' boat that is paid for along with a Ford Expedition and Jag that are both paid for, no bills and I am evil to provide all this for her - but the fact that I did not communicate - whatever the hell that means, with her!!!!!! Oh the trips to Hawaii, cruises down the west coast of Mexico, New Orleans, San Fransisco, Dallas, Washington, Seattle, Orlando, etc, etc, ets, don't count for anything - the more I think about it the madder I get!!!!! Its enough to make one give up crossdressing - well maybe I won't go that far!
Sorry for the rant, but I am a wee bit perturbed about all this communication - crap!!!!
Virginia
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Elandra
- Miss Crystal Goddess
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:46 pm
Virginia
I feel for your situation with your marrage, and do not know all the details of what happened to give any advice realy.
I am 42 years old, i have had a few relationships, all ending in dissapointment, mainly because the respect and non judgement was not there, i realy thought that i was not going to find that special someone, and gave up hope altogether, and then it just happened.
The only thing i can think to say is that those doors closeing may open up new doors and with a partner that is more suited too you, every situation has a silver lineing, its just a matter of a lil bit of time, always dream of what you want of life, they are what creates our reality.
At the begining its hard not to be upset at the X, try giveing her her reasons and accepting them as being right for her in the space she is in right now, every failed relationship makes us stronger, if we learn from the lesson.
Love you Sister, you sound like quite a catch <if i was a real woman>
I feel for your situation with your marrage, and do not know all the details of what happened to give any advice realy.
I am 42 years old, i have had a few relationships, all ending in dissapointment, mainly because the respect and non judgement was not there, i realy thought that i was not going to find that special someone, and gave up hope altogether, and then it just happened.
The only thing i can think to say is that those doors closeing may open up new doors and with a partner that is more suited too you, every situation has a silver lineing, its just a matter of a lil bit of time, always dream of what you want of life, they are what creates our reality.
At the begining its hard not to be upset at the X, try giveing her her reasons and accepting them as being right for her in the space she is in right now, every failed relationship makes us stronger, if we learn from the lesson.
Love you Sister, you sound like quite a catch <if i was a real woman>
I can only assume that when we use the term "communication" we speak of verbal communication??!! In my defense, I, in another life had a job that required me to travel extensively, so I was not home much. My wife did not complain when we moved three times just to follow her mother and father so she could be close to her mother. (I swear they never cut the cord when she was born and it would only streach so far.) Each time we moved it was to a nicer home in a nicer neighborhood and she never lacked for anything that she wanted. When I was home I did a lot of things that (in my opinion) went totally unnoticed, little things, like cleaning and washing her Jag. Yard work which she absolutely refuses to do. Spot painting around the house, my own laundry and ironing, etc. I did this because they were things I knew she did not want to do or would not do and because I wanted to help her out all I could, because I loved her and cared about her. Now I am seen as some type of evil, self-centered socio-path that is a perverted crossdresser! Sure we live (I) since she has moved in with her 80+ year old parents live in a $300,000.00 home with a 23' boat that is paid for along with a Ford Expedition and Jag that are both paid for, no bills and I am evil to provide all this for her - but the fact that I did not communicate - whatever the hell that means, with her!!!!!! Oh the trips to Hawaii, cruises down the west coast of Mexico, New Orleans, San Fransisco, Dallas, Washington, Seattle, Orlando, etc, etc, ets, don't count for anything - the more I think about it the madder I get!!!!! Its enough to make one give up crossdressing - well maybe I won't go that far!
Sorry for the rant, but I am a wee bit perturbed about all this communication - crap!!!!
Virginia
Love And Light Too All
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Loretta Ann
- Permanently Banned
- Posts: 2199
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:30 pm
- Location: Vancouver, Canada