not sure what I would do if...

[Oregon (SO)]

The last few times I have read posts on this board it seems so many are in such mental anguish and pain. More so the cd's lately than the SO's.

See, I knew about my hubbys cdign from day one, found him via his femme website. I looked to date cd's when I was single. BUT...I did as much learning as I could about this community and its inhabitants as I could before putting myself in this life.

What seems to be the biggest hurdle all have to overcome is 'self acceptance'. Maybe the second hardest thing is then aceptance from your closest loved one.

I remember when I was single that I woudl talk to cd's and they woudl say "oh, well if you are okay with all this, then I am going to be okay." But it does not work that way. ALl this self-loathing, self hatred, guilt, shame, and jsut overall negative feeligns that are associated with this have to literally be 'unlearned'. Guys have to assocaite positive feelings and good things with this and stop ataching negative ones.

I knew then, like I know now, that I did not want to be my boyfriend/or husbands therapits, I did not want to be anybodys reason to 'feel better about who they were'. Making someone feel happy or feel lvoe ..that is great. But to be a persons sole ray of light. Hmm, can you say too much pressure! That means on the days when I want the male side ..is his femme side going to feel rejected? Again, too much pressure....

I talked to a fair share who probably woudl have been really great guys to date... but they had so much of that bad baggage and were no where near self acetpance. I must have talked to a hundred guys back then. Any negativity usually showed up quickly and then just as quickly I excuse myself from the sitution.

I remember asking my husband how he got to feel good about himself and he said he just got tired of feeling bad about who he was and made a real effort to stop feelings like some sort of freak.

And as we dated and got to know each other it became clear that he had overcome all that old baggage and bad assoiciation. And five + yrs later I have never seen any of that negative stuff resurface in relation to his dressing.

And really I think I have had it insanely easy. I am not the most patient person in the world. I also have little tolerance for people who seem to wallow in self pity. (come from a mom who is an expert in that field!) I also make a concentrated effort to surround myself with people who also don't view the dressing as a negative in their life. I only make close friends with women who I know will respect me and my husbands lifestyle and choices.

WHen I read the posts from cd's who are still working on self acceptance, still trying to quit, continously appologizing to their wives and family for bring this upon their life....well I just am in shock. Because I will be the first admit, that I am not sure I could live with a man who did those things. A man who was still debating if this is a negative or 'flaw' on his person. I am not sure I would have the patience to wait through these tough times and keep up encouragement and support.

I am not sure ( even though I enjoy this as a part of my marrige) that I coudl live with a guy who had to constantly examine this as a part of who he is. I know it sounds simple minded to some, but my saying "it is what it is."

I don't know if that makes me a bad person, but it is my true feelings. And these amazing SO's....I dont' knwo how you deal with it. I mean you are living with something that you did not choose, but are trying to make the best of it. It is really something.

I admire those of you who do stick around and are patient. I am not sure not have it in me.

hugs
kathy in canada

[Georgia(SO)]

Hmmm...I'm not sure what it is that I want to say here. Although I did not actively go looking for a CDing guy, and he did tell me fairly early in the relationship, I'm with Kathy that the self-flaggelation is pretty rugged on the SO.

-- I wrote a whole bunch of stuff here, but it was just rambling and not of use to anyone, including me. So, although I'm interested in watching this thread, I'm just gonna lurk a while.

-g(so)

[DonnaT]

It's hard for me to understand sometime also Kathy.

Personnally, I've never felt bad about being a CD, except when my wife couldn't accept it. I didn't feel bad about myself at that time, just bad about the whole situation.

I remember other posts where you were trying to figure out why, even when the SO was accepting, the CD wasn't self accepting and could not understand how the SO could be.

I reckon it may have something to do with being ashamed that they aren't 100% manly in their own mind. I don't know for sure though, because like I said, I've always accepted it.

Hid it from others true, but always accepted that I am what I am. God made me this way.

So if they made a pill that took my urge to CD away, I wouldn't take it, unless my wife wanted me to, and only then if I knew it wouldn't change my personality.

[Sinjoy(SO)]

A few weeks ago ( days after Jean-P telling me) I was watching Oprah. She started the show by saying " what would you do if you suddenly found out that there was another woman in your marraige" I yelled back " what if that other woman was your HUSBAND" ok, granted, not my most shining of moments.

I realise that my situation is VERY different from most of the people here. Most people know at a fairly young age. Jean-p is 34 and in a long term relashionship (12 years together, married for 8 in May).

I am ashamed to admitt that I honestly don't know what I would have done if he knew, and told me 12 years ago. He knew about the Crohn's and Colitis, I tried my best to scare him off with it, and he stayed. Would I have? Honestly..... I really don't know.

I will tell you this. I am glad that we have had these 12 years together. I would not trade them for the world. Not one good time, and not one bad. I am also glad that we both know that we have each others back. No matter what.

So maybe it is a good thing that he did not know untill now. I don't know what I would have done then, but I do know what I will do now. I will do what we have always done. I will walk beside him, holding his hand, and help him up every time he falls down. Just like he does for me. I don't know what is around the next bend ( I sure didn't see this one comming), but that is the joy of life. The not knowing. The discovering with someone you love and trust.

Jean-P had that little " breakdown" over the weekend. He saw that I was having a little trouble, he read about the marraiges falling apart, and didn't want that to happen to us. He had (has) a lot of guilt. He know stress cause me a lot of pain (more so than normal, and the is alot normally). It is not just the pain, with all of my illnesses stress can kill me if I'm not careful. No guilt trip, just a simple statement of fact.

I have always said that Jean-P's hell is worse than mine. I am the one in pain. He is the one who has to watch, not able to help. No wonder he wanted to kill this part of him. I told him that it doesn't work that way. If you kill a peice of yourself, eventually you kill all of yourself.

I don't know if I gave you any answers that help. As a said earlier, I know we are a different case than most. He told me after only knowing a few weeks himself. I hope I helped at least a little,

Sinjoy(so)
And fellow Canadian

[Georgia(SO)]

Standing up and cheering for Sinjoy & Jean-p!
-g(so)

[Virginia]

I really admire you SO's who have the open-mindedness to at least attempt to understand. I again quote one of my favorite bible verses:' "Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore get wisdom, but with all thy getting get understanding." Thank you for trying to understand,
Virginia

[CJ]

Hi all,

Sinjoy wrote: If you kill a piece of yourself, eventually you kill all of yourself.

True, true. By the same token, if you learn to embrace even those parts of yourself you believe are undesirable, eventually you embrace all of yourself. This is the kind of person Kathy, for example, was looking to be partnered with and she seems to have found him in Amanda.

The only sane way to look at this, for me, is that my gender identity is not just a "part" of me that I can cut off and discard at will, it IS me. It's who I am, not just what I do (however frequently or infrequently).

As someone who's been single for a while (but doesn't intend to remain single for the rest of his life), I take much comfort in Kathy's assertion that there are women out there who look for this gender variance in a partner. I'll be patient and I'll continue to just be who I am. Really, do I have a choice in the matter?

Love,
CJ

[Elandra]

To me i think alot of the problems we or i have being a CD is the hideing, hideing something from others has a way of makeing me feel ashamed, knowing that others will eather lose me as a friend or spouse, makes it hard to accept myself, i never had a problem with myself for what i do. it has always made me feel good, i told Charlie a day after we meet, i didnt call it CDing, i never realy called it anything, i just said i stuff a bra and ware it about the house, i knew i could tell her, she just has that way about her, her light shines bright, and i seen it in her the second our eyes met. I think we all get pleasure from CDing , or we wouldnt do it, so its the reaction from others, or the hideing all the time that causes the problem, we all want acceptance for who and what we are, and CDing is not on the top of the list for getting acceptance. Cant talk to anyone about it < why this site is so wonderful> to relieve some of the stress about it, so we dump on ourselves, getting the acceptance from Charlie, all her help in getting me clothing and stuff, made me feel more accepted, and know that people just dont understand that there are all kinds of folks outr there, and to not judge.
Homosexuality not that long ago was not so accepted eather <getting better> , the more that people stop hideing it the more people see and start accepting, maybe that is what we need, to stop hideing and educate the world, this is Crossdressing!!!! maybee then men can conect to there femm sides without fear of rejection, or disaprovel.

[Kersten Lee]

Kathy SO,

That was a great message. I cannot say that I could have received it a year and a half back and have said, great message. I was that person of which you spoke.

I have been seeing a therapist that could communicate with me and was only concerned about me. 2.5 years of therapy and all of you and I am becoming a pretty respectable human being who loves cross-dressing.

For me at least, cross-dressing had and does not have anything to do with my days past when I hated myself so much. I don't feel that need to hate myself much anymore. Life has become like a bowl of cherries.

Thank-you Kathy.

All the other messages were great too. It is great to have that family feeling here!

Kisses,
Kersten

[CJ]

Hi all,

It's been almost four months since the last post in this thread. I thought I'd try to revive it because it's an important subject. Our gender variance may be a gift to some but, to others, it's led them into hard times indeed. For most of us, I guess it's shaped both our positive traits as well as our darker, more unpleasant facets (such as shame- and guilt-based thinking, obssessiveness, self-loathing, etc.).

When I first read Kathy's original post, above, I took it at face value--as the thoughts of one woman who, though comfortable (to say the least) around crossdressers, has difficulty dealing (as do many other SO's) with many a crossdresser's self-acceptance issues.

Well, I've been thinking about this a little more (I'm sure "thinking" will be the death of me some day! ) and there seems to be a hidden assumption here; namely, that a CD's self-acceptance issues shouldn't include his SO's inability to accept that part of him that is still struggling to accept himself. In other words, and more plainly, there seems to be a kind of reasoning that wants to say that a CD's self-acceptance issues will (or should) vanish the moment someone else accepts him for who he is. I'm just not sure it's that simple.

I see a parallel here between an SO who's only just found out about her DH's crossdressing needing time (and lots of it) in order to process the entailments of that discovery and a CD who, in a similar fashion, cannot undo years of damage to his self-esteem in a mere moment, just because his SO accepts who he is. Both of these situations require time.

Kathy (and what I'll say here is not a criticism, just an observation), I'm inclined to think that a woman who runs away (yet again) from a man because he has trouble accepting himself as a gender-variant individual will only reinforce that man's view of himself as being somehow defective and unworthy of love and attention, thereby increasing the difficulty he has in accepting himself. On the other hand, a woman who sees enough goodness and kindness in that man, despite his baggage, and who decides to stick by him may very well set in motion the kind of emotional turnaround that man needs to do in order, precisely, to start accepting himself for who he is.

Now, I realize that (as you, yourself, mentioned, Kathy) no woman wants to become her DH's exclusive therapist or cheerleader, her DH'S sole source of emotional support--especially if that support will require all her attention or energy. It's draining. It's like being dragged under the surface of a choppy sea by a drowning person as you try to drag him to shore. But that's just it, though. There is a shore. The love, patience, and understanding a spouse can give to a spouse will often be a catalyst for self-acceptance and, assuming it's true that we cannot love someone else if we don't first learn to love ourselves, then the love, patience, and understanding given will one day be returned tenfold. I've seen this happen in my own life and I think it's the main reason I've both come to accept myself more fully as well as remained good friends with my former SO's.

We all have our bugs, quirks, and issues (and crossdressing is sometimes the least of these) but when a person finds a mate who doesn't "run, screaming into the night" because of these issues, chances are that person will come to see that he or she isn't less loveable because of those issues: and this, on its own, can be like a great shove in the direction of self-acceptance.

A long-time friend, a former SO (my current roommate), once asked me whatever possessed me to stick by her, all those years ago, when she was so obviously deeply, deeply troubled (to the point of being self-destructive). I told her that it was because, in spite of the dark, dark things she was going through (and, yes, that she put me through, as well), I always sensed that she was genuine, authentic, unrelentingly herself. That's all that mattered to me then. And it's all that matters to me now, twenty-five years down the road. Today, she attributes much of her capacity to love and accept herself to my willingness (and ability) to see (and to love) the person that she was--so hurt, so alone--behind the mask of her wildness and aggressive FTW attitude.

Having said all this, Kathy, I totally understand that each and every one of us is different in our desires and our needs as far as intimate relationships (or even friendships) go. Life is short, there's no denying that. We do what we must in order to waste as little time in finding what best makes us happy. But, sometimes, in our haste, we pass by a mud-covered diamond, thinking it's only a worthless pebble.

Anyway, Kathy, I just want to say, in closing, how so very valuable your presence in the online world is to people such as me--the single crossdresser who's "up front" (although not necessarily "in your face") about who he is. It gives me hope that I won't be forever "unmatched." Thank you for just being who you are.

Love,
CJ

[Beauty]

Morning CJ,

I loved your whole post and would love to comment on the whole thing, but I'll just stick to these two paragraphs.

I do have an accepting wife, but if she decided that she couldn't take me being TG'd I'd have to eventually understand. SO's who can't cope with TG'd stuff ever or anymore aren't running away. They are accepting their limits and are quite brave for saying, "I can't do this."

Some women are built to do this some aren't. Man or woman, we all know when you love someone more than anything and when you loved someone more than anything. It's really tough, during a relationship where the love wasn't uber strong to have another thing that shows you didn't know this person the way you thought you did, or you've found something else not to be attracted to about this person. When people have families it makes it even harder for them to leave someone they aren't in love with anymore, even if they are TG'd and the SO doesn't want to have anything to do with their TG'd spouse/boyfriend SOs tend to stay around longer.

You're right it's not any SOs role to be their hubby's personal counselor or cheerleading section. It is expected that in a relationship we all be there in some form for our spouses, but not perma-care. Being TG'd is a life long struggle. If a woman or mate (for our Gay CD'ing friends out there) doesn't understand that at the beginning of the relationship, but begins to understand the lifelong struggle TG'd people endure as the relationship progresses and decide "No, I can't do this." I applaud them for breaking it off sooner than later. It takes a lot of strength to walk away from love. A LOT!!! I doubt I'm telling anyone anything they don't know.

In our lives, most likely, we've all had to walk away from a relationship because we knew where it was going to go if we stayed in it. We knew we were going to be miserable and not fulfilled. If some SOs feel this way, they are not obligated to stay with their TG'd mates. Not ever. In life and in the end an SO is here for themselves and their families. They are only human. So just like a TG'd person who knows he/she can't deny his or herself (for our FTM friends) they (the SOs) should be afforded the same understanding and compassion if they choose to say, "I can't do this" and they act on it and leave.

I agree with CJ, Kathy! Great thread!!!

Beauty

[CJ]

Hi all,

Beauty,

I totally, completely agree with every single word you said. To me, it's obvious that both CD's as well as SO's need to be able to "follow their bliss." There's no question about that. And, yes, it does require courage to walk away from love. It also requires courage to stay and try to mend things, when that love gets buried under the various issues that can crop up in the life of a couple. One way is not necessarily better than another, though; as with everything else in life, it's a case-by-case matter and depends on the people involved.

But, anyway, I wasn't really trying, in my post, to address the question of an SO leaving her mate because he's TG'd but, rather, because he, himself, has trouble accepting that he's TG'd. If I understood Kathy rightly, I think this is what she was talking about. All I wanted to point out, I guess, is that self-acceptance can be as difficult and lengthy a process for a CD as can plain old acceptance be for an SO--even when that CD is partnered to an accepting SO. There is magic in being loved (especially being loved for who we genuinely are); it helps us heal. But healing always takes time; there are no shortcuts--no matter how much our SO loves us. When I talk about people "running, screaming into the night," I wasn't referring to people doing so because their mate is transgendered but because their mate is still carrying dark, psychological baggage about being transgendered. Of course, I'm supposing here that people like Amanda (Kathy's partner) who have managed to, in a way, take the bull by the horns and heal themselves, are the exception rather than the norm. Self-acceptance and healthy self-love can never be divorced from the acceptance and love we've gotten from other people throughout our entire lives. Chances are, the more we faced ridicule and condemnation over the course of our lives, the darker our emotional baggage will be (and the longer it will take for us to heal).

But, again, as for what you were saying, Beauty, I think we're in total agreement (and you know we are, you! ). Still, I'd be very curious to hear from other SO's on the matter of their DH's difficulties with self-acceptance and how they, themselves (that is, the SO's), have learned (or not) to cope with it. Like I said, I think this is an important subject and I'm glad Kathy originally brought it up.

Love,
CJ

[Kay(SO)]

There have been some really good threads in this group lately. I am amazed and delighted.

I have to say, I must have missed this post the first time around and would like to add my thoughts, hopefully without being judged harshly.

I did not look for a CDing mate but I did have the advantage unlike some of being told before we dated and subsequently married. It's been 7 years with him and I feel like I should apologize for not seeing CDing as a positive in our relationship. I accept that this is who he is and that without looking at that fact and that without it, he wouldn't be him and I may not have fallen in love with him but for me, it doesn't bring some lovely little extra to our relationship. In fact, if it wouldn't change him internally; emotionally and mentally I would like the pill that would make it all go away.

That being said, let me explain a few things. CJ wrote:

Now, I realize that (as you, yourself, mentioned, Kathy) no woman wants to become her DH's exclusive therapist or cheerleader, her DH'S sole source of emotional support--especially if that support will require all her attention or energy. It's draining. It's like being dragged under the surface of a choppy sea by a drowning person as you try to drag him to shore. But that's just it, though. There is a shore. The love, patience, and understanding a spouse can give to a spouse will often be a catalyst for self-acceptance

Sorry for copying the whole thing but it is important. This describes exactly my relationship without a doubt or pause.

I have been the soul source of support for my husband since being told. He refuses to seek support from other couples or CD'rs. I have encouraged, researched, contacted, begged and been patient but due to past experiences which were negative, he refuses. This leaves me carrying the burden of the secret and overwhelmed with waving the pom poms and jumping up in the air. I'm tired and jumping up that high has become harder.

I took it upon myself to help him get past the self-loathing, doubt, shame and fear. I worked my behind off to help him find self-acceptance after he lived through some horrible experiences with losing jobs, friends, SO's and family. He is not the same man today because of the love, support, encouragement, compassion and understanding that I have offered him.

Why did I do it? I sometimes ask myself this very question. For many reasons. I want the unconditional love I try to offer him and he does his best to give it to me. I'm not the easiest person to live with. I'm a recovering alcoholic/addict and just because I've been sober for 17 years doesn't mean I always will be. He also gained my twin daughters when he signed on with me. As if that wasn't enough. Mostly, I offered my support and compassion because I saw the pain as he cried talking about what he'd been through in the past. I didn't want him to hurt anymore. I didn't want him to be ashamed for who he is. I was on a mission to help him find self-acceptance, maybe it is the therapist in me since I really am one. Whatever, I did it because I love him.

What I didn't know at the time was how much it would cost me. Emotionally and mentally it sent me into a whirlwind and I had to back away for months to sort out my own feelings and get a grip. I had a major meltdown and we nearly split up. Luckily I knew that I needed outside help and support. I got it from my own therapist and from this group as well as a women's group I'm a member of. Would I do it again? Absolutely, simply because I still love him and he's no longer in agony and pain. Once in awhile he feels guilty but that's usually about the money he spends on "her".

Anyway, that's my story. And I really don't mean offense to those who view CDing as a gift or positive in their lives. I accept it but, I don't feel like I HAVE to like it. I still try to be that positive cheerleader for him but now I do it when I want to not because he needs it so much. I don't do it at my own expense anymore, I do it because I'm feeling okay about CDing. Now if I can just figure out when I'm going to feel okay and when I'm not. That's the part that's hard on him now. But, we keep working on it...

Kay(SO)

[Virginia]

Wow! Wow! Wow! You girls impress me, you intimidate me, you scramble my few brain cells. I want to comment, but don't know where to start or even that my comments will be coherent enough to make sense.
First, ladies, let us pat our selves on the back. How many GG's and/or CD'ers have we helped - not just us perhaps but this internet thing! Think of it this way. The first caveman walks out of his cave and for the very first time, he (she) sees a fire burning in a pit and standing next to it is a salesperson in a three piece suit with a three inch thick book called "FIRE - An Owners Manuel." Within these pages are all the things good and bad that you can do with fire. How far along would we be now??
It was not so many years ago that even a representative guide to CD'ing existed. Who we are: what we are: what we can become (good bad or indifferent). Out poor sisters who came before us and it was not that long ago, had no where, no where to go even the "shrinks" did not (and some still don't) have a clue. Treatment: lock 'em up, shock treatment, or Bob Newart's three words " Just stop it!"
Wait my song is on: "Nightshift" by the Commadores I love the back beat!
That song is sooooooo cool!
Anyway, My wife moved out and in with her 80+ year old parents back in February, and sought a divorce (AFTER 28 YEARS): Why? I get different answers, her brain operation back in December?? my crossdressing?? or according to my daughter, I am too tight with my money!! Perhpas a combination! I made a feable attempt to capitulate, but to no avail, so I am movin on! I, at my advanced age! will not seek another relationship! First I ain't gonna change for no body!!! I will remain a competitive powerlifter until I die and do the training that comes along with it! Second ,or first, Virginia is me and that will Not be taken from me in any way!!! If I want to lift weights with my fingers and toes painted red - it will be that way!
After having been a part of this forum for what a year and a half and reading a lot of SO's comments - I have determined that it is beautiful that some of them stay with "us" and support us as best they can. But right now, I have not seen one, not ONE that understands the why!!! We don't seem know ourselves. I have seen a lot of reasons and perhaps there is one or two or more things that (and you know I firmly beleive this) give us this gift. All guys ?MAY? have it but either fail to see it , acknowledge it or maybe don't have it, who knows. I don't care, but if someone comes to me"us" here and says help me out! We are there for them, we don't on the other hand go out looking for our brethren.
Women are amazing creatures as we know, but of all the things they have to deal with, periods, PMS, childbirth, equality, moods, the most difficult I would think is dealing with crossdressing and God Bless those that take it on!
Good luck on sorting my ramblings out! I love women, I respect women, I don't understand women, I will fight for them and what they seek, but right now - I just want them to leave me the hell alone!
Love you all,
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

I also missed this thread the first time around. Thanks for bringing it up again CJ. All of the posts here are very good, there are things written in all of them that I am in agreement with.

Having said that; I am in complete agreement with Kathy on this one. What I have to say here is just my position on this and is not intended to be construed as to mean that others should have the same position. In spite of the fact, that I intend to be very frank about what I have to say.

Having spent approximately half a life time in bondage before I was able to be free of the things Kathy spoke about in her post in this thread. I am not about to saddle myself with someone else’s baggage. Especially the same kind that it took me so long to get out of. To me it would be pointless to have worked so hard to get out of it only to turn around and get back into it again.

One of the things that helped me to reach the place where I became content to remain single is this very issue. All of the women I became involved with liked what I had to offer them but were unable to return it. Also I learned how to check some of them out without needing to become involved, I did not find one that I felt would be able to be compatible. Finally that is the issue that led me to aspire to achieve uninhibited cross-dressing. And I have not had reason to look back since then.

While some may see that as being selfish, my response is definitely. I want to experience some enjoyment and fulfillment out of life.

Also before some begin to feel comfortable with the thought that she sure has a big head about this, let me point out that those (both men and women) who have the qualities that Kathy speaks about are usually in rewarding relationships. By and large (but not all) that are available at the age of say about 40 are available precisely due to the fact that they are missing these qualities, and nothing drastically enough has happened to them to cause them to search within themselves for something better.

CJ makes a very good point; people who are not where Kathy wanted her husband to be, need the kind of support CJ is talking about in order to achieve freedom. I am reminded of what I heard one professional say about one he was supporting. His words were that I am here to love you until you can learn to love yourself.

I acknowledge that I would not have made it with out some one providing that for me. At the same time I acknowledge that I would not have made it without someone providing some criticism that served to keep me somewhat uncomfortable about where I was at. I acknowledge that I needed both.

In conclusion I need to point out that the person who provided the love that CJ is speaking of could not have provided it 24/7 he in fact said and did certain things that kept me at a certain distance from him. Today he is still a very good friend. Hind sight tells me that I did not need more than that.

Love,
Darlene.