Lesbian=crossdresser: relationships

[Kersten Lee]

Hi Everyone,

I wrote this in reponse to a question, How do you see yourself? in the crossdressing talk section. I decided to move it here. I don't remember if this thought has been discussed here. Please let's don't fight. I would very much like to read others thoughts and feelings about this by cross-dressers and SOs. It is very important to me.
---------

It sounds as if Elizabeth has had some experiences, such as I, that many people assume cross-dressers are gay. Or such as Alexandra that some would propose that cross-dressers cannot be gay.

Cindy Barnes, I have felt for years, had I been born with my mind and a physical female body, I would have been lesbian. Is it possible that more of us feel lesbian and that in turn offends SOs. I have read so often how the SO and also my wife say that they do not like the feeling of being lesbian when being intimate with us as woman.

My wife, when able to let go, has enjoyed being intimate with me as Kersten. It could be that having your man dress female is hard enough to handle. Could us acting or being or feeling like a woman and then to want to make love to our SO, cause some women to feel lesbian when they have no such need or want.

Could the more successful marriages at integrating our need to present female have women partners that can accept a certain amount of gender variation or bias in themselves? Could acceptance of husbands such as I have a little to do with the woman's comfort level and confidence in their own gender and sexuality? Could mutual love and respect mean we cross-dressers use our male abilities to please our wives and girl friends often enough, that they can also let us be how we feel. How does the term lesbianism enter into this.

Again, please don't be offended. I know and I think most of you all know by now that there are never any complete and absolute answer for any and all people. We are all unique.

Kersten

[Pauline]

Kersten Lee.. hia

My wife once asked if she was a lesbian because of my crossdressing.. the simple answer is no. at least not with our situation as we each are individuals and have our unique and indivdual responces.. wether dressed en femme or in drab.. undernieth i am still the same. my wife accepts me for who i am and enjoys both sides of my personallity.

I cant say that if i had been born female that i would have been a lesbian, as i have not been born female.. though it has crossed my mind a few times..

Pauline

[Curly(SO)]

As an SO who is happy to be intimate with my hubby while he's dressed, I thought I'd share my thoughts here

I'm not offended if my hubby wants to fantasize, role play or even feel on a deeper level that he's lesbian while intimate, it doesn't make me feel like a lesbian unless I choose it to. I don't get hung up on the lesbian thing. It doesn't change the fact that I'm in bed with a heterosexual man, that always will be...regardless of what he's wearing or what role he may be playing out. Sex is fun, we play, it really is as simple as that for us.

Like you say Kersten, there are no complete or absolute answers, this is just how it is for us. Sorry this is short, got to do dinner now

Love,
Curly(SO)

[Loretta Ann]

Kersten,

It is my take on this that if you were born female you would not be sexually attracted to women.

Love Darlene.

[DonnaT]

Way I see it, there are women and there are men, and there are those of us in between. I think the ancients had it right saying we are the third gender.

So, if you really want to apply labels, where F2F is lesbian and M2M is gay, then there is no label for F2TG (F2CD or F2TS) or even M2TG (M2CD or M2TS) or TG2TG.

I prefer not to have a label, and instead just enjoy my partner without any hinderance [sp?] caused by labels.

My 2¢

[Sally]

I'm not sure that we're able to say with any degree of certainty that if we'd been born a female we would have been a lesbian. Personally I feel that if I'd been born with a genetic female brain, body, hormones etc I would in all probability have been a heterosexual female and attracted to males. Even though I wish I'd been born a female I know I'm not and can never be a genetic female. I've never had an attraction to males, I am and always will be a heterosexual. I believe that people such as those of us who have a conflict with our sex and gender aren't in a position to say what would have been if this or that had been the case, it would then have been a totally different proposition than it currently is and how we feel now that we were born as we were.

Although it's easy to hypothetically ponder over these situations the reality is what it is, and even though it's nice to dream sometimes we can't turn the clock back or alter nature. I've certainly had experiences in my life where I've been accused of being gay and that doesn't offended me. Gay people have the right to live their lives in peace the same as any of us. People have their minds made up about me then it's virtually impossible for me to change their thinking and indeed I don't even try.

My wife is well aware of what my inner desires are and the fact that my dearest wish in life has been to travel my 'journey' to the furtherest point possible, but something we never have done is introduce Sally into the bedroom, that's always been something we both never wished to happen. I'd even go so far as to say that even though my wife sees me every day in female clothes it would make me very uncomfortable to take it into the bedroom sexually. I know quite a few lesbians who I class as really good friends, but I can't say I've ever felt like I was one or wished to be a lesbian.

I certainly am not intending to offend anyone in the slightest saying this, but from the men I know personally who are Crossdressers etc who do introduce their female side into the bedroom, have, during discussions, told me that it's more to do with erotica and stimulation, even though a few have said that the lesbian fantasy is something they think of but their partners don't.

I think during these times some people may well fantasise about being a lesbian, but, again not meaning to infer anything to any person or offend anyone, I think it's a well known and accepted fact amongst the male population that one of the most highly sexually stimulating exciting events to a huge numer of males is two women making love together and maybe it's possible that some males marry this picture up in their mind with being dressed as a female and making love with their female partner.

This can be a bit of a touchy subject and I'm always reluctant to get involved in topics which have a sexual content, but we're all adults and hopefully a little more open honest discussion of our beliefs can sometimes fill in the gaps for some people who may find it difficult to broach the subject. I hope I haven't offended any of the wives or G/fs or anyone else by anything I've said, as that was the furtherest thing from my mind or intentions. It's all just my opinions and beliefs formed from my lifes experiences, both in and out of the TG world.

Kind Regards.

Sally.

[Jamie Ann]

I'm not sure that we're able to say with any degree of certainty that if we'd been born a female we would have been a lesbian.

     How very true!  That’s sort of like saying that if I had been born with a physical disability I would be on welfare. Or if I had been born with the biological destiny of growing to 6’10’’ tall, I would be the starting center for the Atlanta Hawks. Not only are those big “ifs”—hugely hypothetical—but very few outcomes in life are a function of only one quality, such as having a physical disability, being 6’10’’ tall, or being female. Presumably, if my soul had inhabited another body, that body (and mind) would have differed in other ways, too, and those other ways also would have affected my outcomes (being lesbian or whatever). As Popeye said, “I yam what I yam!” so pondering such hypotheticals may not be the surest route to self-discovery.

[Kersten Lee]

Thank you all for your insights! I tend to believe in alternate realities. It could be that the only reality is the moment by moment. I think, therefore I am? For me that is a difficult concept.

Kersten

[Cindy Barnes]

Kersten,
It may be a little late tonight for me to be comenting on your question so I will keep it simple as I can :-)My brain has always had this girl side but never been confused about being hetero. Well maybe when realy young and full of all kinds of questions, but I figured it out pretty quickly
I know when I get all dolled up and feeling pretty I am still attracted to only GG's,,,(my wife being the only one I am intimate with) This is why I made the lesbian side note in the poll on sexuality. I can only imagine thats how a GG,, Bi- lesbian- whatever, feels like , being ultra feminine and attracted to another just as feminine. I know there are all sorts of combinations, and Im being pretty general on the details :-)
If it had been in my cards to go through SRS ,I feel now I would still just be attracted to GG's. That seems to be not all that uncommon from what I understand., and I know feelings can change after totaly transisitioning too.
Now if I had been born female I cant say how I would feel ?? Maybe I would dress female to male but still be hetero ??? No way to know for sure.
For now if I have to choose a title, I will stick with the hetero, male, lesbian,cross dresser
Cindy

[Kay(SO)]

My take may be somewhat different than posted as of yet. I know that the couple of times I have been with my husband while dressed, in the bedroom, at first I did have that question in my mind about my own sexuality and what it said about me that I was with him as a "woman." Did it mean that I'm a closet lesbian or perhaps bisexual? It scared me quite frankly and at first was upsetting. Then I was able to look at the fact that he was still him underneath the clothes. My husband expressed to me that part of his attraction to me is my strength, dominant personality, etc... he says all the time that I think like a man, whatever that means. My concern became, not whether or not I was a lesbian but to whether or not he wanted to be sexually involved with a man. And that has remained a fear. It has been discussed with other SO's that I know and it seems to be a fear with many of my friends. Then when we hear one tell that this has actually come to fruition, it makes the rest of us freak out even more. Anyhoo, just my take. I too, hope that I didn't offend anyone by my frankness.

Kay(SO)

[Oregon (SO)]

HI

I want to add another SO viewpoint. I enjoy the cd aspect of my husband and since I was interested and curious about men who wear womens clothing from a young age (roughly 9) the whole lesbian or bi-curiuos thing used to plague my thoughts. I could not understand how I could be turned on by the thought of a guy en femme , but an actual female did nothing for me in any way. I can appreaicte female beauty and will be the first to point out an attractive (to me at least) female. But it ends there. I have no interest in being intimate with in any way what so ever with a genetic woman.

I will also add that I have had my opportunties to explore a lesbian relationship but ultimatly could only be friends with one. Any true and real (from the heart) sexual attraction was just not happening. I metnion this as alot of people have said I am in denail, but how can you be in denail when it is jsut not who you are?

I eventually came to the personal conclusion that I like an attractive package, but I like men sexually. So being with a crossdresser in no way makes me feel like a 'lesbian'. Besides the obvious male clues that can't help but emerge once intimacy begins there is just nothing truly 'female' about a guy dressed en femme. I know for alot of guys that woudl almsot seem like a huge insult and I guess I shoudl be thankful that am not with a man who views my feelings as a personal attack on his 'femininness'. Regardless of how 'passable' or how womanly-looking a guy is, once he opens his mouth and talks, once he begins to undress, once you begin to feel his body ... well it is a guys body. Pure and simple. And being a female, I would like to think I know what a womans body feels like. :-) And it feels nothing like mine. You can remove the hair, you can grow out your nails, you can have the smoothest skin, but there are so many 'man' clues underneath the make up and the wig and perfectly hidden breast forms.....it it like this wonderful charade and I am happy to play along. But ultimatly I feel what I feel and that is like a hetrosexual female having fun with her husband who just happens to look feminine at the moment.

I can understand how some women feel like they are being made to feel like 'lesbians', but for myself personally that is literally the LAST thing I would ever feel like.

I hope no one here takes my post the wrong way.

I hope that gives you more insight.

hugs
kathy in canada

Hi Everyone,

It sounds as if Elizabeth has had some experiences, such as I, that many people assume cross-dressers are gay. Or such as Alexandra that some would propose that cross-dressers cannot be gay.

Cindy Barnes, I have felt for years, had I been born with my mind and a physical female body, I would have been lesbian. Is it possible that more of us feel lesbian and that in turn offends SOs. I have read so often how the SO and also my wife say that they do not like the feeling of being lesbian when being intimate with us as woman.

My wife, when able to let go, has enjoyed being intimate with me as Kersten. It could be that having your man dress female is hard enough to handle. Could us acting or being or feeling like a woman and then to want to make love to our SO, cause some women to feel lesbian when they have no such need or want.

Could the more successful marriages at integrating our need to present female have women partners that can accept a certain amount of gender variation or bias in themselves? Could acceptance of husbands such as I have a little to do with the woman's comfort level and confidence in their own gender and sexuality? Could mutual love and respect mean we cross-dressers use our male abilities to please our wives and girl friends often enough, that they can also let us be how we feel. How does the term lesbianism enter into this.

Again, please don't be offended. I know and I think most of you all know by now that there are never any complete and absolute answer for any and all people. We are all unique.

Kersten

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Kathy,

The two posts that I have read from you this morning are among the best posts I have ever read "Thanks woman."
They provide a taste of reality, something that is often feared by some.

Love Darlene.

[Kersten Lee]

Thank-you so much Kate and Kathy! My dear wife has read these and we have talked more about her feelings about me. She still denies any self sexual identity issues, but still says that she at times feels uncomfortable because of the lesbian overtones. This is not new. We have been intimate, with me being dressed, for 28 out of 30 years. As I said before, sometimes she was very enthusiastic. Since therapy I have been able to express love more ably as a man. (I hated my father as an abuser, then hated men and then myself as a man). Now I only dress maybe 1 out of 5 to satisfy other parts of my being. It seems she enjoys me much less as a woman than before therapy. I am not as obsessive about dressing, but do enjoy it more, as I have given up the guilt and followed my heart within my comfort and hers.

Writing this, it makes me wonder that my acceptance of this about me has caused her more fear. She does not like to talk about the emotional fulfillment that I get shopping and dressing and feeling pretty. She is uncomfortable here and only reads what I print for her.

Thank you both again for your replies.
-----------------------------

Cindy Barnes, I have enjoyed reading and seeing your pretty pictures for a long time. I hope you don't think I have assigned labels to you. More everyday, I understand better that everyone of us is unique. I only have words to talk. Sometimes not so good.

It particularly touched me about feeling lesbian. I am not gay nor ever have had those feelings. I have been so sheltered and ignorant about sexual, and gender issues that 5 years ago I could not have given anyone accurate definitions. My father talked about me being queer with anger, kidded in high school, and then kidded for about ten years at the place I currently have worked for 30 years. I always knew I was different and a pervert. Now I know I am not a pervert. Neither am I gay. I only took in my mind what I was told.

I understand now, people said these things to me because of their predjudice. I was and am a kind and caring person. I pefer to talk and negotiate rather than have macho power trips and demostrate feats of dominance. As a teenager, my father called me a damn woman.

My therapist said a few weeks back that she thought that I was the most androgynous person she has known. I said, why thank-you. She smiled, as she often does. I have been feeling quite comfortable for around six months now, living on the boundry. I am ok crossing the line back and forth and living as I am.
-----------------

Darlene, thank-you also for your participation!

Hugs,
Kersten

[Cindy Barnes]

Kersten,
Thanks for the nice words, and no poblem with lables for me :-)
I usually stay on the lighter side of things,,,,try not to get too deep into serious issues, but I could relate well to your question/topic.
Most of us have the same roots that brought us here, just with different color blooms .
Hugs
Cindy

[MelaniePeg]

I see myself as a person who with my wife sexually enjoys being a woman with another woman and at times being a woman with a man. My wife becomes my "husband" and I become the "wife". She plays the husband role well while never losing her own husband. I know this has to be confusing for many to understand. I do not see this as being bi-sexual or lesbian or gay. I am a person who enjoys intimacy with a woman and also a man. In my fantasies my wife becomes me, the man, and I become her, the woman. She has the male parts and I have the female parts. At other times we are both women enjoying each other and our own femininity.