“The Manufactured Product”

[AnnaMaria]

Personally I can not imagine changing my body other than the normal type stuff of hair removal and such. But that is the way that I feel about it subject for my own body. I don't see any reason why someone should not do just that if they believe that the change is what is going to make them happy.

Personally I believe that if my creator had not intended for us to be able to do such a thing she/he would not have allowed us to discover how to do it in the first place.

As far as repressing the male side by these actions I don't really think that is an issue simply because from what I have learned of girls who transition there never was a male side to begin with or there was not enough of one to really make a difference in the big picture.

My creator gave me free will to choose how I live my life but she/he also set some guidelines within me that tells me just how far is enough and that is the most important part of being trans for me. And as far as being born defective is concerned that is something that I just can't accept. I was born the way my creator wanted me to be and nothing else. Maybe I am part of a third gender or maybe I am just intended to serve a purpose that has not yet been revealed. who knows

anna

[Loretta Ann]

Thank you Elizabeth.

And thank you for your contribution CJ.

I think I understand what you mean (but do correct me if I'm wrong); when you say that, by abandoning the drive for some (illusory) perfection, we gain the capacity to be content with who we are, as we are, without feeling the need to take things further. Is this close?

That is spot on CJ.

I guess I'm just still a little bit puzzled as to the nature of the yardstick by which you define "balance."

I was unaware that I was attempting to define it. I thought I was pointing to it?

I guess I still don't understand why it couldn't be possible for someone (say, a person who's more than "just" a cross dresser but "less" than a transsexual) to "take things further" precisely because they're also seeking that contentment.

I have not intended to say that is not possible. In fact I hope it is.

I think it's important not to confuse the search for happiness and well-being with a quest for perfection. Every which way I read you, I cannot help but feel that your view is based on such a confusion.

I aim for perfection fully realizing I will not obtain it, one will only come close to where their sights are set. How close I come is something I do not concern myself with.

By the way, Darlene (and I'll admit that this is merely the result of my own experience), it seems impossible to me to properly gauge what kind of help or support a person needs or wants (if any) if we don't give a hoot where that person is on his or her life's journey.

When one is attempting to accomplish something like has been accomplished in this thread, one needs to close the door to as much negative feed back as possible. I don’t give a rat’s backside where others are at in their journey in the sense that I am not attempting to control where someone is at. With some people here I know exactly where they are at. I have been able help some of them precisely as a result of being able determine that. One poster said publicly that she felt I knew her better than she did.

I also acknowledge that there are some here (that I know where they are at) who I do not have the skills to help.

I will never know where everyone is at and do not attempt to accomplish that.

Someone who's "just starting out" may need a bit more "handholding" than someone who's mastered whole sets of coping skills and strategies on the road to becoming who they are and who they can be.

As I have said in a previous post we are a team here, we all have different gifts. I acknowledge that you appear to have the gift for the above situation. (So does Beauty) and possibly others. People like you are needed here. I am not interested in duplicating your gift. That is not my calling (that is not my gift) and I do not worry about that.

One person can not do everything. I did not see any results from the hands I have held. But I have seen results by doing the things I do.

Love,
Darlene.

[Loretta Ann]

And as far as being born defective is concerned that is something that I just can't accept. I was born the way my creator wanted me to be and nothing else.

The opposite of defective is perfect? Good luck with that.

Darlene.

[Anita]

If I'm getting the spirit of this thread correctly, I did have to put out some effort to bring my male side back into balance. My femme self appeared, took center stage, and demonstrated that I had plenty of energy and enthusiasm for life when I was living it in a way that I wanted to do--that is, not locked into behavior that was dictated to me.

Why going out as a woman was the key to unlocking this energy is not the question here, although we're all curious as to why this happens. Obviously, I got a big payoff by presenting a different person to the world. And the tendency is to want to become that new and exciting person.

I knew that this was partly an illusion, but it was and is still very compelling. It has been a struggle to try to bring back some of the best qualities of Anita into the male side of life. Touching on the other thread in this series, it is harder to get the same payoffs by bringing "her" behavior into a male-centered world.

But I could never had done it at all if I hadn't gone to the extreme of creating a polar opposite, and working backward from what "she" discovered.

[Virginia]

Once upon a time, long, long ago, one of our sisters (Azza"s??) made a very interesting observation. I had been discussing, Jung's Anima concept and she said something to the effect that, what if, just what if. we as hetrosexual male crossdressers, thinking our anima was controlling our desire to present as female when in reality, it was the anima that was truly " running the entire operation" and just let the the male think he was in control. Is that not much different from our relationships, Married or otherwise???? We think we are in charge but down deep in side in places we don/t go or are afraid to go we know who really and truly "wears the pants" in our relationship/ Guys!!?? it ain't us!!! Hello, so who is to say that the anima for those of us who have, recognize, regard, and dare I say, love our anima! That it is really in charge and only lets the male think it runs the operation! Truth is stranger than fiction. ladies??
Virginia

[Cathy L. Anderson]

we as hetrosexual male crossdressers, thinking our anima was controlling our desire to present as female when in reality, it was the anima that was truly " running the entire operation" and just let the the male think he was in control.

A really good and important observation.

For most men, the "male mind" is closely connected, almost synonomous, with the Ego. The Ego thinks it's in charge, but it isn't. The most important message the Jungian model is that it's the "higher Self" which is in charge. The higher Self is mostly unconscious. Eventually the Ego needs to surrender to the authority and guidance of the Self.

[Aside: I think this is one of the main reasons we CD--as a corrective measure to our overly strong male Ego.]

Anyway, Jung viewed the anima as the door to the unconscious (and therefore to the Self). She is our connection to that realm, but not the entire realm. She is a messenger of the "higher authority," but not the authority itself. That's the theory, anyway.

Now, to tie this in. The decision to take feminizing hormones can be made by our Ego, or by the authority of the Self. I believe that when I took steps to pursue feminizing hormones, it was an action of the Ego. It was something I *thought* I wanted. But deep inside, in realms not consciously known, it wasn't.

Cathy

[Cathy L. Anderson]

So, as we develop as children we become the 'manufactured product' of our teachers. What they implant into our brains as children may not necessarily correspond with our natural thinking

I would just like to suggest that that the distinction between the influence
of external "shapers" (parents, teachers, etc.) and the dictates of our higher Self is not always clear.

External figures influence us mainly when we invest them with authority. If a person said something completely antithetical to our nature, like "go jump off that cliff," we'd just blow them off and not worry about it.

But if they say, "act socially like a man," this affects us. The reason might be because there really is an inner call to this, which manifests itself as a projection onto an external figure.

I don't think realizing this in itself changes anything. We are still left with the fact of a conflict between being a male or being female. But I believe we make a little progress by seeing this conflict (or perhaps constuctive tension?) as something within our own nature.

Speaking of "constructive tension," maybe that's a good way to look at things. Perhaps, for some of us, nature intends us to live within this tension. Although challenging, perhaps there are benefits. In my case, it appears it's better for me to live with this tension, and to try to grow from it, than to try to eliminate it by hormonally suppressing my male side.

Cathy

[Loretta Ann]

Anita wrights; But I could never had done it at all if I hadn't gone to the extreme of creating a polar opposite, and working backward from what "she" discovered.

Interesting observation Anita.

That is usually the way life has been for me. I think I sort of did that in the beginning before I accepted who I am. Any how I think I was spared that since my restart about 10 years ago.

Darlene.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Cathy,

Again, you provide an interesting viewpoint. While I agree that trying to come to terms with the "creative tension" within us is (or may be) better for us, ultimately, than trying to resolve it through "external" means (such as drugs or surgery, for instance), there's a risk, here, too. That risk takes the form of "coming to a place" in our lives (in our heart, in our soul) where we discover we no longer have the means to cope with that tension. When this happens, we often feel that there remain no "live options" for us and this can, in turn, lead to despair, depression, addictions, self-destructive behaviours, and suicidal ideation.

Forums such as this one (amongst other things) provide us with a way to shore up our complement of "live options" (as in, "Hey, look at this! I'm not alone in this. I wonder how others in my situation have dealth with their inner conflicts").

In other words, tension in itself is a mere datum; whether we see it as being creative or destructive is usually a matter of both outlook and, of course, outcome. Widening our outlook by heeding (and occasionally incorporating into our own psyches) the experiential wisdom of others does, more often than not, lead to our being able to tap into the creative potential of our own tensions. This, I think, is true of anyone--man, woman, gender-variant or not.

To answer Darlene's question: yes, there are times in my life where I may have repressed (or, rather, suppressed) my male side (although, in my case, it was more or less suppressed by another, a former SO; still, the result was the same... I became disenchanted and unhappy... it just wasn't who I am). Nevertheless, I'm led to wonder just who it is, exactly, that represses the male side in us when we do repress it. Surely (and with apologies to Virginia) not our female side? If it were our female side, where is that side when we abandon crossdressing, however temporarily, by purging and by promising ourselves (futilely, I may add) that we'll never express our feminine aspects in that way again? Call me confused, but I'm thinking that our deepest sense of self (our higher Self, as you call it) is not only sexless but it's genderless, as well. And the soul follows the wind; sometimes it gives us a female face, sometimes a male one.

Social expectations that we conform to a binary (and sex-consonant) gender scheme are no doubt repressive, true. But they're not as dangerous to our mental health as are our own self-imposed repressions. We often conflate what we think society demands of us with what we demand of ourselves; although these two sets of expectations often parallel each other (and often commingle), they're just not the same thing.

Sometimes, I'll read a post by a deeply closeted crossdresser (either here or on another forum) who's deathly afraid that one of his bra straps will show through his shirt. The truth is, most people (who don't live in a repressive culture) either just don't care or are merely curious; I was once spotted as a crossdresser precisely because of this by a young couple sitting behind me on the bus and, boy, did she ever give her boyfriend quite an education on transgenderism and crossdressing... I couldn't help but smile).

I'll be honest, here, and admit that I have, myself, tried to repress my male self more than I have in the past, as a direct result of having come into contact with this forum and the people on it. But it doesn't work. It's not who I am. In the end, I just gave up and said to myself, "No, I'll just be who I truly, deeply, feel myself to be." Sometimes, it's Christina, sometimes it's just Daniel but, mostly, it's a heady (and creatively tense) mixture of the two.

I think Darlene does raise an interesting issue, however. It's something to think about, at any rate.

Anita,

I agree with Darlene; that really is a good observation. I'm reminded, here, of Hegel's "dialectic." Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis. We constantly move from one end of our self to another in search of balance. It's akin to what Cathy calls "creative tension" (or what, in the biological and physical sciences, is referred to as "homeostasis"--the natural tendency living organisms have to seek out a state of equilibrium). Good point, Anita.

Love,
CJ

[Virginia]

You know girls, it just dawned on this girl! We are the experts in this field - yes!!! some are more expert than others, but we who delve into this thing called crossdressing and try to understand it and explain it to our "less educated brethren" (be they gay, straight, crossdressers, whatever)! We are the ones that pursue this "Magical Mystery Tour." There is no overridding authority that says " this is the why's and wherefore's of crossdressing!" We are it girls!!!! We have been studied, almost dissected, osterized, loved, hated, but we have blossomed and we continue to grow and seek to understand!!! We misunderstand, sometimes, what eachother may be saying, but we keep trying and that is the wonderful thing about it. As they say:"It is the pioneers that take the arrows!" We are out there trying and forgeing ahead and hopefully making it easier on our sisters who follow in our footsteps! Are we the 3rd sex or the next phase in human evolution?? The debate continues! Who or what part or parts of us control our desires, the ego, the anima, the Id, are we sure we know??? Socio-economic history??? A combination of all of this??? We, "the experts" are studying it are we not! We don't always (ever ) agree?? But we are seeking answers and perhaps someone is writing all this down and will begin putting the puzzle together! You know how I feel! I love you all not only for what you have done and meant to me, but for you brilliance, persistence and love you spread!
Now back to our regular programing!
Love you all.
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Hey Sis,

You know what it takes to make an expert don’t you? All it takes is to become a drip under pressure.

You asked: Are we the 3rd sex or the next phase in human evolution??

If we are we have more or different problems than the other sexes. At least they are free to be them selves they don’t need to worry about repressing one side or the other.

Love Darlene.

[Loretta Ann]

But I'm thinking that our deepest sense of self (our higher Self, as you call it) is not only sexless but it's genderless, as well.

I stand in agreement with you there CJ.

[Virginia]

Thanks for your reply, Darlene. My response is:" evolution." If history is any indication as we evolve, do we not become a more complex organism? I have no doubt that we=crossdressers are more complex than our "uninformed" brethren! We struggle with "balance," but we have the gift and we balance it in our own individual terms.
Love,
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Thanks for your reply, Darlene. My response is:" evolution." If history is any indication as we evolve, do we not become a more complex organism?

Could you explain what you mean by that? Are cross-dressers any different today than they were 100, 200, 300 years ago?

And even that is beyond our life time. I would like to understand you better? What application does that have to us in our lives today? How does that help us? What am I missing Sis?

I understand that we evolve in respect to the process of change in a certain direction: (UNFOLDING) But for me that process happens as we mature.

Love,
Darlene.

[Cathy L. Anderson]

Hi all,

CJ,

When this happens, we often feel that there remain no "live options" for us and this can, in turn, lead to despair, depression, addictions, self-destructive behaviours, and suicidal ideation.

In Jung's model, the resolution of opposites (resolving mental conflict) always requires this stage. It's the alchemical "nigredo" (blackness), mortification (death) or putrefactin. The mystics' "dark night of the soul" Crucifixion. Death must precede rebirth.

Widening our outlook by heeding (and occasionally incorporating into our own psyches) the experiential wisdom of others does, more often than not, lead to our being able to tap into the creative potential of our own tensions.

Definitely.

Nevertheless, I'm led to wonder just who it is, exactly, that represses the male side in us when we do repress it. Surely (and with apologies to Virginia) not our female side?

Good question. It might be. I suppose a person might get caught in an alternating pattern of the female suppressing the male, folllowed by the male suppressing the female. I think that's the original, conflicted state, in fact. It's like there are two egos, or one Ego (male) and one "autonomous complex" (female) which is much like an alter-ego.
Progress comes when both begin to understand that they are subject to a higher Self. As I write this I am neither in "male" nor "female" mode. I'm not my higher Self, but perhaps a little closer to it than either my "male" or "female" ego.

Virginia,

You know girls, it just dawned on this girl! We are the experts in this field - yes!!!

Absolutely! And nobody here is more expert than anybody else.

Cathy