Passing vs. Man in a dress

[Kathy]

A conversation I just had with my sister and mother reminded me of something I read a while back.

The large portion of the subcultural literature which seeks to educate male cross-dressers and sex-changers in the art and technology of ‘passing’- of appearing in public as a woman and being taken as one – is indicative of the way male femaling might be seen as reinforcing gender role stereotypes, thereby reproducing rather than changing the existing arrangements between the sexes.
…
Compare this with the phenomenon of ‘gender f**k’. ‘Some call it “Spit Drag”, others call it “Half Drag”, and still others call it a form of insanity. See what happens when the act of crossdressing becomes a personal, social or political statement’. Proponents of ‘gender f**k’ deliberately mix masculine and feminine gendered presentations of self in an attempt to subvert the present arrangement between the sexes. Proponents of ‘gender f**k’ might walk down the street with a dress on, despite the fact that they may be wearing a beard and combat boots. …The combinations are endless. It is a way of stating ‘I am both male and female, and there is no need for me to be only one or the other. I reject society’s demand that I dress in a manner dictated by my genitals’.

From Male Femaling – A grounded theory approach to cross-dressing and sex-changing by Richard Ekins

OK, my sister asks “Why is it necessary for crossdressers to make themselves look like women just to wear a dress?” While we discuss the issues surrounding the general reaction of people seeing a “man in a dress”, she says that whenever she sees a crossdresser attempting to pass, regardless of how well they come across, she still sees the very stereotype that crossdressers want to overcome.

On the other hand, she does acknowledge that the general public isn’t ready for the “man in a dress” even though that is exactly what she sees regardless of how well made up a crossdresser is.

But, she really had no problem with me, wearing my beard and women’s slacks and women’s top out to a popular local restaurant for dinner with her, her husband and my mother. She just saw a guy wearing clothes he was, obviously, comfortable in. A bit weird perhaps but her general reaction was “so what”.

Is the author correct in the observation that those of us who attempt to pass are actually reinforcing the public’s view of the stereotypical crossdresser?

Mind you, I am not saying that anyone is doing anything wrong here. We all must do what feels right for ourselves regardless of what others think. But this author’s observation plus this comment by my sister makes me wonder if Pogo was right – “We have met the enemy and he is us”.
I must also acknowledge that, while I am just wearing the clothes that I feel most comfortable in, I am also making that personal/social/political statement that the author referred to. Now, I have no intention of going out in public wearing a dress with my beard. But, I also have no intention of shaving my beard and putting on makeup in order to wear a dress out. I am perfectly happy wearing the slacks/jeans and tops. So far, nobody seems to have a problem with that. But, I have also read many posts here from people who are quite certain that they don’t pass and they don’t have any problems going about their business either.

Just not really sure what to make of this and would appreciate any thought or comments the rest of you might have.

Love,
Kathy

[Sallee]

Interesting comment I agree on the surface but as you get deeper into crossdressing I think it becomes more than clothing. I certainly enjoy wearing the clothes and a nice dress although not necessarly sexy clothing but nice attractive clothing.
I also real enjoy makeup doing my eyes and appliing rouge and lipstick and messing with different wigs. I think for myself I could be a drag queen of sorts. Although basicly I am your white bread straight crossdress who gets a kick out of dressing and most of all passing Maybe that is just better said fooling some folks some of the time in my own mind.
I also think the CDs your sister sees don't pass but I am willing to better she has seen a lot of CDs and just doesn't know it. I proved that with my wife "who could always tell" I introduced her to some CD and didn't tell her and had her fooled for a bit..
It is a strange world out there but that makes it fun..Sallee

[Elizabeth]

Kathy,

This seems to be a continuing theme among the crossdressing community. I beleive I am the classic "man in a dress"




I don't wear breast forms or a wig(except occasionally) and I don't pass, as you can see. As for stereotypes, from my standpoint, what else do I have to tell the world I am not the gender I was born?

Clothes, makeup and appearance in general tell the world about us. If I were wearing a basketball uniform and athletic shoes to match along with sweat bands, one might assume I either play basketball, or I am interested in it. Others dress in western attire to have the "urban cowboy" look, but have never even seen a ranch to show that they relate to that lifestyle. Others still wear "biker" attire, but may or may not even own a motorcycle. They may want to present an image of a bad boy, when in reality they work 9-5 in some office.

And the list goes on and on. People dressing to make people beleive they are something they are not. Crossdressing is no different. My brain is not a male brain and I dont like being treated like a typical male. Regardless of what else it does, crossdressing ensures that I don't get treated like a typical male, by either sex.

I wear women's clothes to say "I am not male". I don't come across as a woman, but there is no doubt I am not a stereotypical male. And as a bonus, society treats me as such. People are nicer to me, and woman approach and touch me more, as they see me as non-threatening in a non-male role.

I am no more interested in pretending to be a woman than I am pretending to be a man. I just want to be me. I don't need training to be me. The big advantage I see of passing, would be not attracting unwanted attention. Basic safety. But I don't have a burning desire to pass. I am not interested in trying to learn how to sit differently, walk differently, or talk differently.

I guess I really am just a man in a dress.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Kathy,

Is the author correct in the observation that those of us who attempt to pass are actually reinforcing the public’s view of the stereotypical crossdresser?

I think there is a lot to be said for that. On one hand we are making a statement that it is alright for men to wear women’s clothing, and in the next breath we are saying we really don’t believe that because we need to hide it, by attempting to impersonate a woman. (re passing).

While I am sure there are those here who will disagree with this. That is the message sent to society. What they see is women wearing men’s clothing but they do not attempt to pass themselves off as men. Yet men who wear women’s clothing are not OK with doing the same thing.

Cross Dresser speaks with forked tongue, So there has to be more to it than they are letting on? What a complicated lifestyle.

Love Darlene.

[Cathy L. Anderson]

Hi Kathy,

I don't know if this helps or not, but since you asked for input, here is my .02 worth.

When I have dressed in public, my goal was to look attractive, not to pass. In fact, if possible, I'd prefer people to say, "Hey--that guy in the dress looks almost like a woman" than "Hey, look at that woman over there." One reason is just that trying to pass creates too much anxiety.

In any case, I'm not too interested in making a "social statement." I'm more interested in expressing and enjoying myself.

Yes, I think CDs dress in an idealized female way (e.g., dresses rather than slacks). Maybe it helps to distinguish between "trying to look feminine" vs. "trying to look like a woman." A woman, after all (just like a man) has a combination of masculine and feminine traits. So, if I wear a dress and not female slacks, it's a sign that I want to look feminine--not like a woman (because women wear slacks sometimes).

Perhaps a man is something like 60% masculine and 40% feminine, and a woman 60% feminine and 40% masculine. But a CD wants to really emphasize their feminine side.

Cathy

[DonnaT]

Like Elizabeth, I really don't have a 'need' to pass as a woman. I've worn women's tops out with drab pants/shoe.

It's more of a feeling of what is comfortable.

Saturday, my wife and I were talking more about it, she had just bought me a pink t-shirt. I told her that I would feel perfectly fine just wearing a skirt. I also told her that it was more than that, however.

It's more than just the clothes. If it weren't, then I wouldn't desire to shave my body, or have my ears pierced. It's more of doing what feels right. Why it feels right, I couldn't say, it just does. Heck, 'metrosexual' shave thier bodies because it feels good or feels right.

Which is one reason why I sometimes like getting fully made up. Depends on how I feel at the time. Just like anyone else, I reckon. Dressing according to our mood or feelings.

I don't pass when fully made up, so why put in that much effort if I'm not in the mood for it.

OK, my sister asks “Why is it necessary for crossdressers to make themselves look like women just to wear a dress?” While we discuss the issues surrounding the general reaction of people seeing a “man in a dress”, she says that whenever she sees a crossdresser attempting to pass, regardless of how well they come across, she still sees the very stereotype that crossdressers want to overcome.

On the other hand, she does acknowledge that the general public isn’t ready for the “man in a dress” even though that is exactly what she sees regardless of how well made up a crossdresser is.

But, she really had no problem with me, wearing my beard and women’s slacks and women’s top out to a popular local restaurant for dinner with her, her husband and my mother. She just saw a guy wearing clothes he was, obviously, comfortable in. A bit weird perhaps but her general reaction was “so what”.

Is the author correct in the observation that those of us who attempt to pass are actually reinforcing the public’s view of the stereotypical crossdresser?

For some, they dress fully not merely to pass, but because the result achieved is how deep down inside they feel they should look. Many will never pass, yet many do.

For some, they dress fully to pass so as not to cause a commotion in public. They might do it because, as I read so often, they are afraid of being humiliated or attacked, for example.

For some, they dress fully, not to pass, but to be noticed. Some use it to fulfill a need such as, being humiliated or getting a sexual thrill.

I could probably go on and on, but the point is, everyone has their own reasons for dressing fully. Some in society could care less, some will always think it is because the person is gay, some will think the person is just wierd, and some will say, good for him/her.

So, what is the public's view of a stereotypical crossdresser. For that matter, what is a stereotypical crossdresser? Or are we thinking for the public, without actually knowing what the public is thinking?

[Maggie]

For some, they dress fully not merely to pass, but because the result achieved is how deep down inside they feel they should look. Many will never pass, yet many do.

For some, they dress fully to pass so as not to cause a commotion in public. They might do it because, as I read so often, they are afraid of being humiliated or attacked, for example.

For some, they dress fully, not to pass, but to be noticed. Some use it to fulfill a need such as, being humiliated or getting a sexual thrill.

I could probably go on and on, but the point is, everyone has their own reasons for dressing fully. Some in society could care less, some will always think it is because the person is gay, some will think the person is just wierd, and some will say, good for him/her.

So, what is the public's view of a stereotypical crossdresser. For that matter, what is a stereotypical crossdresser? Or are we thinking for the public, without actually knowing what the public is thinking?

I don't consider myself to be a "stereotypical crossdresser." I think my crossdressing has specific motivations that probably don't apply to the majority. Even I don't fully understand them yet, but I have been making a lot of progress recently.

Briefly stated, my crossdressing is for the purpose of expressing myself as a separate, female persona, which allows me to experience self-love and other positive feelings that have been cut off from me as a man. In order to enjoy this, I have to manifest my female persona as fully and realistically as possible. This involves appearance, voice, movement, and attitude.

Therefore, it is very important for me to be able to "pass" in public. Even if some people are able to "read" me, I want to look as good as possible to avoid being ridiculed or pointed at. I am fortunate that I am able to do this reasonably well. For whatever reason, just looking androgynous doesn't serve my purposes. I don't want to be seen (or to see myself) as merely a man in a dress.

If I want to make a social statement, I prefer to do so as a man in some sort of man's kilt. This gets people's attention, and it makes the point that men can wear skirted garments that are designed and intended for men, instead of being confined to trousers.

[Kathy]

Great replies! Thank you all.

Given the rural area I live in, I have to say that I haven't encountered another CDer. I have a hard time believing I am the only one around here but, perhaps, I am the only one who has started openly wearing women's clothing outside my house. So, I have a hard time defining what a "stereotypical crossdresser" is other than what is superficially protrayed on television from time to time. Nor did I have a chance to have my sister define her own view of crossdressers. Our conversation the other night was all too brief.

My only real exposure to others is through this forum as I don't participate in any others. So, again, my view of the crossdressing community is somewhat limited. Those who actively post here seem to be of a fairly open minded nature. Given what I have read here, from time to time, of what is going on in other forums, I wonder if we are representative of the CD community in general.

I am much like the rest of you in that the idea of making any kind of social or political statement never enters my mind as I'm getting dressed in the morning. I just grab what seems appropriate for what I have planned for that day, whether it is raking the yard in preparation for laying down grass seed or going grocery shopping.

Also, given that the book I quoted from was published in 1997 based on research conducted during the 80's and early 90's, I'm sure that public perception has shifted quite a lot since then. And, as DonnaT pointed out, I don't want to get into trying to think for or second guess "the public".

While I don't go as far with makeup and accessories as Elizabeth, I do share her basic feeling of neither male nor female but the embodiment of both.

But, I do have to admit that the protest statement from the book:

‘I am both male and female, and there is no need for me to be only one or the other. I reject society’s demand that I dress in a manner dictated by my genitals’.

really does reflect my underlying attitude toward societal norms.

However, when planning to go out in public, I am also governed by those "basic safety" requirements. While I have been wearing women's jeans outside for several years, I have only recently started expanding on that to slacks and tops. So, while I am quite comfortable wearing a skirt inside, I'm not so sure I could get away with it outside in this area of 4x4 pickups with gun racks.

So, I guess all this is just my way of figuring out where I fit in as opposed to how I am viewed from the outside. Thoughts like this just rattle around in my head until I can put them into perspective and file them away in an appropriate place.

Again, thanks for the comments. It really helps to find out how others see these issues.

Love,
Kathy

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

It has occurred to me, that although many of us at one time or another have given a lot of consideration to what the different societies of our world think about us. I don’t think they are all that interested.

I suspect they have made their minds up along time ago based at least in part upon the message we have sent, and closed the book so to speak. And do not reopen it unless something happens in their life to cause them to reopen it.

After all it is pretty hard for me to visualize how they could (in their own minds) visualize any benefit for themselves by doing so. How can accepting us benefit their lives? Unless you could somehow get all of society to accept us all at the same time, we would only be causing them trouble.

It would not be too unlike us asking our (SOs) to carry our problems, (suddenly) after we have been married for x number of years. Some of them are simply going to say get lost.

Darlene.

[Absaroka]

Except for my underwear, which no one can see, my clothing right now is completely unisex. (For sake of arguement I won't even say what it is). A tank top that my daughter likes to wear as a dress and a pair of gym shorts which could be easily worn by anyone. The tank top doesn't even say male. It says adult x large. The gym shorts have no fly. I wore this all day.

So have I transcended gender in my clothing? Hardly. Have I expressed who I am? Yes but only in my attitude that I like comfortable clothing.

What am I trying to say? I don't know. But this was such a great thread wiht so many good ideas that I had to contribute something....


Andrea

[Virginia]

Well, Maggis has said it for me as to how I see myself, now. Initially, however, being a competitive athlete, I saw dressing and going out in public as a challenge, something to win at, to overcome the possiblility of being read! Now it is more along the lines of Maggie's post. The fact that it is something that I want to do and to do well and feel good about how I present in public. Have I been read, yes I am sure I have, but it was not because it was obvious, it "hopefully" took a keen eye and/or that I made some physical gesture that gave cause for more carefully scruinity than was necessary!
Anyway, I will state it as I have before, I am Virginia, she is me and we love each other and will continue on our"Magical Mystery Tour!"
Love,
Virginia

[Kay(SO)]

An SO sticking her nose in on a wonderful thread...

Maggie wrote:

my crossdressing is for the purpose of expressing myself as a separate, female persona, which allows me to experience self-love and other positive feelings that have been cut off from me as a man.

This is my husband exactly! And so is this:

In order to enjoy this, I have to manifest my female persona as fully and realistically as possible. This involves appearance, voice, movement, and attitude.

And finally:

Therefore, it is very important for me to be able to "pass" in public. Even if some people are able to "read" me, I want to look as good as possible to avoid being ridiculed or pointed at.

My husband's tells me that his biggest fear is feeling ridiculous and I know that it would kill him if someone openly made fun of him while dressed. I guess that's why I put so much effort into helping him improve his look over the years. He can come fairly close to passing, especially out at night or to dimly lit clubs but, to me he will always look like a man in a dress. I'm too close to the situation to be able to look at him objectively. I mean I KNOW it's him underneath the clothing, but then I still struggle with the aspect of WHO is he?

He told me early on that his ultimate goal was to pass and I deflated his dream by telling him I thought he never would. At the time I didn't realize that it was a terrible thing for me to have said but he believes it now and has never gotten over my words. For that, I feel awful. Do I still feel that way? Yea, but I never meant to break his heart.

Anyhoo, I just had to stop in when I read what Maggie wrote. Oh yea and I almost forgot that I wanted to comment on this other thing that someone else wrote, sorry I forgot to take note of who: So, what is the public's view of a stereotypical crossdresser.

I think that the media and entertainment industry have greatly influenced the public's view of what a stereotypical crossdresser is or looks like. For one, in doing research for the book I'm working on, it surprises me to know that everytime I search CDing it directly takes me to gay and lesbian sites in the data bases I'm using. Why? Because the belief with the general population is that crossdressers are gay. Does it surprise anyone then that an SO's first thought or question is, "oh my god, is he gay?!" when she finds out about her husband's CDing?.

In my opinion, those two entities have besmirched the reality of defining crossdressers. Look at the movies or when you read an article in the paper or hear about someone who is outed on the news because of something that's happened. The connotation is usually negative, that they are some kind of pervert, gay,disturbed or that they all want to transition and be women.

My husband in fact refuses to watch any movie that has anything to do with men in drag or dressed because he ends up really angry about how inaccurately they are being portrayed and it continues to perpetuate these unrealities. Think Dame Edna, Connie and Carla, Normal. There are many other movies but my brain has suddenly turned to mush. Most of the time crossdressing characters exists as a form of comical entertainment and that is when it really gets him upset. It only amplifies how little CDing is understood by those outside the TG community.

Okay, enough from me now. Sorry to write a book. Hugs to all and frankly I think you are all very brave for simply wanting and trying to be who you are.

Kay(SO)

[Kathy]

Thank you Kay(SO)! Your thoughts are most welcome here as are those of the other SOs.

I agree with your observations of how CDers are portrayed in the media.

You have given me something more to think about as well. When you said your husband didn't want to look rediculous, I thought back to a time, many years ago, when I had gotten myself a nice wig and had an outfit that I thought I looked good in. I got myself all shaved and dressed and put on the wig. Then I looked in the mirror. In that instant, not only did I look rediculous to myself but I knew that wasn't where I wanted or needed to go with my crossdressing. While, at that time, I was still trying to figure out just what my dressing was all about, that moment gave me at least one of my answers. Presenting as a woman was simply not something I needed or wanted to do.

Thank you again for your post. As I learn about others I continue to learn about myself.

Love,
Kathy

[RobynP]

OK, my sister asks “Why is it necessary for crossdressers to make themselves look like women just to wear a dress?”

My wife (now ex-wife) asked me "Why do you have to wear a wig and makeup when you wear a dress?" and "Why do you wear woman's pants when you can wear pants as a man?"

This got me thinking that what I was most interested in was to present a certain image, the image of a woman possibly wearing pants. Also, this image of a woman that I wanted to present was MY image of a woman... I did not and do not want to present the image of a man in a dress.

I want to look like a woman because when I see the image of myself as a woman, I am pleased with the image I present. The other senses are along for the ride, but factor in as well. Not only to I want to appear as a woman, I want to act, touch, smell, and hear like a woman.

But do I want to become a woman? No, because my fascination is not in BECOMING a woman but in PRESENTING an image as a woman, sort of like an actor portraying a role. To some, there isn't much of a difference between BECOMING and PRESENTING, but for me there is.

This is only MY explanation. I think that there are as many different answers as there are crossdressers.

[Virginia]

Kathy,
You inferred that this revolution came to you some time ago. Has it changed? We had a thread some time ago entitled "What do you see in the mirror?" I can not speak for any of my sisters, but I would think that you could take the kindest, gentleest , sweetest crossdresser, dress him up stand him in front of a mirror and I don't care how "dedicated to the cause" he is if he is looking at a beard, mouchtash (whaterever) facial hair I do not see any way he could see beyond that! So the question begs an answer, what is CD'ing worth to you or in sports "How bad do you want it?" Now if you are a closet CD or your spouse will not allow you to shave your facial hair whether she knows your CD or not all I can say is "Deal with it!!" Oh you can still share the gift we have of expressing your kinder,gentler side while endrab and that is great and it serves everyone well, but since dressing is an intragal part of a lot of us, the side show begins with the bearded lady. No offense to any of my sisters in this position. It is you, live.love and enjoy.
Virginia