Feminism and Crossdressing

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Are feminism and crossdressing incompatible?

No they're not; I consider myself a feminist.
26
70%
Yes they are; you cannot simultaneously be both.
1
3%
Honestly, CJ, it's more complicated than that!
7
19%
Huh? The question is meaningless to me.
3
8%
 
Total votes: 37
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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Heh. Okay, okay. :-k So I'm sowing ghosts, here, and reaping phantoms. :P This is just what's going through my head. Why? Because I'm continuously confronted with the fact of my non-female feminism by the women who are my conversation partners in this matter (and, yes, many of them are feminists--adhering to a "qualified feminism," much like Georgia above).

I'm still not sure, though, why a man cannot be a feminist. Even (or especially) a woman-identified man. I don't think testosterone, for example, necessarily shapes one's political and social ideals (any more than does ethnic background or socio-economic class). Of course, it does have an influence. But a necessary one? I'm not so sure.

And now, blecchh! I have to go to work. See you all later!

Love,
CJ
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Post by Anita »

CJ--
That was quite a point you made there. Using my example of a civil rights activist, you brought in the element of wanting to act out the worst of racial stereotypes--like wearing black face in a minstel show--while still trying to work for better conditions. It's a good analogy. Why am I going onstage in heels and short skirts?

I see myself as more like the two groups of women sex workers here in SF. One was COYOTE, formed by Margo St. James. It stood for Call Off Your Tired Old Ethics, and it was a group that worked for rights for prostitutes and other sex workers. The other group of women opened a woman-owned live adult live sex show here, and paid union wage to the women who worked there. (That was called the Lusty Lady, and is still in operation.)

These women were saying that for whatever reason, they still needed or wanted to work in the sex industry, and they were still operating under the umbrella of feminist ideals while doing so.

So I fall into that camp. Sexuality is part of the image I project as a woman, and I use that when I'm performing on stage. There are women who feel the same as I do, even though they may be a minority.

I also know that I project more than just the showgirl--I'm also out there in a conservative, middle-aged woman appearance, and I know how to do that, too. So it's not like I have only one speed to my dressing.

Last point--many women might have gone through a period of wearing short skirts and heavy makeup when they were 15, and then they outgrew it. We never got to go through our teen girl years, and we end up living them out thirty or forty years later. I knew very few CDs who started out dressing their real age.

I hope this doesn't end up being sliced off into Hot Topics.
A
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Post by Georgia(SO) »

Ahhh...well, now we are probably getting into a discussion of precisedly what does feminism mean? Also typing in the dark to keep from waking my sweetie...

First, though, let me go back to CJ's discussion of why her en femme portrayal is so blatantly...uh...baby sex goddess, as it were. Look, there's a difference between what our logic controls and what our gut feelings control. Case in point...my brain knows that there is no threat to my feminitiy when my guy dresses up. But some neanderthalette inside of me still feels like he's in *my* territory. It took me a long time to recognize that sexual images are housed in a different part of the brain than logical responses. For example, why, if I feel mildly threatened when I see his painted toe nails, doesn't his long hair bother me? Because I grew up as a child of the 60s and long hair on guys was sexy when I was learning what sexy is. Conversely, at the same time, buzz cuts were linked with war and, in my mind, are massively not sexy. Does that mean that short-haired men aren't sexy? Of course not. Does it mean that they aren't sexy to *me*? Well, yes...

We learn what is sexy very early in our pubescence and that view imprints very solidly. I can't see that it would be very different for CDs who dress in a manner which fits that early imprint of a sexy girl...

Meanwhile, as to what feminism means. Anita discussed the role of unions in the sex industry and the role of feminism in the sex industry. Ya'll hang on because I'm pulling up my soapbox. No one is going to deny that there can be exploitation in the sex industry, particularly if the participants (male or female) are strung out or helpless in some form or another. OTOH, women and men who choose this as an informed career, who choose to make their money this way, are not the antithesis of feminism. Feminism was, and should continue to be, about the empowerment of women in a formerly patriarchal society. I gather that most of us are old enough to remember the conditions which brought about the 1970s rise of feminism - and while it certainly was not as repressive as it had been in earlier times, it still was a time when women were expected to stay in the shadows. The problem with this was that if the woman wanted to break that mold, to move up in business or government, she simply couldn't. Likewise, males who wished to be more family-oriented, stay home dads, etc., simply couldn't either.

Empowerment of anyone does not mean that *we* choose what they should be empowered in, how they should dress, what an appropriate career or lifestyle should be. Empowerment means that the individual gets to decide for themselves. Anti-feminism is about society deciding it for them.

Therefore, I truly see no conflict between the desire to dress and act as a woman and feminism. Nor do I see a conflict between a woman's informed choice to make a ridiculous amount of money in the sex industry and feminism.

I do, however, find it hard to swallow when a CDing male says he is doing this out of admiration for women -- because we are so very fine, so very cool or so very whatever. It comes across false, especially if his primary focus of emulating us is hung up in the clothes. It makes so much more sense to say that he is doing this because he likes to. See, it doesn't make any sense to me to say that, as a gg, I am being a feminist by putting on clothes designed to make me look more masculine - i.e. women's power suits, etc. In fact, I find that it is exactly the opposite. How can I be more feminist emulating a man's dress and mannerisms than a woman'z? And yes, I do like the comparison mentioned that what if I, as a red-headed, freckle faced woman, wanted to express my admiration for African-Americans by putting on black face and tap shoes. People would rightfully go nuts and consider it an insult. Would I mean it as insult? No, but it wouldn't be terribly tactful either, now would it?

gotta try to get some sleep...
-g
Last edited by Georgia(SO) on Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Beauty »

Hi Georgia,

LOL!! (about your final sentence) rotf ..rofl.. rotf

That post was so dead on the money to EXACTLY the way I feel it was scary. There was not a single point I disagreed with you on. From your sex industry comments all the way down to your last sentence regarding the wonderful "I dress because I emulate women" discussion I was in total accord with you. :bigsmile: Your post was an absolutely wonderful!!!

Thank you so much for saying something I could have never worded so well.

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

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Post by Georgia(SO) »

georgia smiling sweetly and taking her curtsies...
-g
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Post by Anita »

Georgia(SO) wrote: We learn what is sexy very early in our pubescence and that view imprints very solidly. I can't see that it would be very different for CDs who dress in a manner which fits that early imprint of a sexy girl...
That's certainly a part of it. I want to share my impressions of what has meant the most to ME, during my life as a heterosexual man.
Empowerment of anyone does not mean that *we* choose what they should be empowered in, how they should dress, what an appropriate career or lifestyle should be. Empowerment means that the individual gets to decide for themselves. Anti-feminism is about society deciding it for them.
It's very hard even for groups that believe in feminist ideals to hold onto this, but you state it very well. I'm thinking of lesbians battling against transgender women, for instance.

I do, however, find it hard to swallow when a CDing male says he is doing this out of admiration for women -- because we are so very fine, so very cool or so very whatever. It comes across false, especially if his primary focus of emulating us is hung up in the clothes. It makes so much more sense to say that he is doing this because he likes to.
That's fair enough. It does relate to the beginning of this reply, where we're talking about "imprints," and how CDs end up wanting to emulate them.

Nice post, Georgia.
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Post by Georgia(SO) »

Anita said,
I'm thinking of lesbians battling against transgender women, for instance.
Ya know, group mentality is what it is. Think of any group battling for recognition of their own agenda. For example, surveys seem to indicate that racially based civil rights groups tend to ignore other racially based civil rights groups (i.e., African-American v. Hispanic; Hispanic v. Asian), all racial civil rights groups v. gay marriage rights, the 1960s Black Panthers v. feminists; this religious group v. that religious group... Apparently it is a common group mentality that *my* civil rights are more important than *your* civil rights. I don't quite know why that is. Some nasty human trait that we never have quite evolved out of... Ya'd think we'd understand that freedom for all means just that - all!

Nice thread, ya'll. Thanks for opening up the issue CJ - I think it bobbles around in all our heads to one extent or the other. Ya know what I like about this group? Never mind that 1/2 of us are wearing girl clothes and the other half are...oh wearing girl clothes ... I like that we are all thinkers and philosophers and that we really work to understand the implications of our own behaviors, whether as men, women, CDs, SOs, old, young, etc.... Golly, we're a cool bunch! Thanks again Donna T for leading me here...

-g, who has to get back to work...
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Post by Virginia »

Just a big ditto! oops [-X [-X
Just a big AMEN, sisters!
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Post by DonnaT »

Georgia(SO) wrote: Thanks again Donna T for leading me here...
Glad to be of service Georgia (--)
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Post by Absaroka »

A great topic and even better replies. I really enjoyed reading this and agreed with most of it.

Personally I don't see a neccesary conflict between crossdressing and feminism although of course if we go with people like Robin Morgan (men are gnats) then there are problems. For me feminism is about equal opportunity, not neccesarily equal outcomes.

I did object strongly to one thing that was said. Virginia's discussion of women looking like slobs. And Virginia I usually like your posts and enjoy reading them. For a very long time I have thought that if we are serious about not judging folks by their appearance it has to extend to unattractiveness. Personally in male mode a lot of people might consider me a slob. My wife when we were dating sometimes went as far as to consider my appearance offensively unkempt. Yes we all judge people like this but it is wrong, wrong, wrong.

If we are going to ask to be allowed to present ourselves as we wish, defying societies expectations and what some people consider moral codes, then we absolutely must be willing to reciprocate. And if that means letting go of our ideas about taste, thats how it is. A fat woman in jeans that just don't fit, unwashed hair, zits, and b.o. is as human as anyone else and deserves the same respect no matter how she presents herself. And in saying that I fully acknowledge that I would much rather look at, talk to, and be friends with a cute young woman in good physical shape, well dressed according to my taste in clothes, who has good social skills. That is my character defect, not hers.

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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Geez, another thread that slipped under my radar this past month! :roll:

Cool replies, all. Thanks. :) Georgia, you've obviously never given any of this some serious thought, eh! :-k (Kidding! I'm just kidding! :mrgreen: )

The reason I wanted to bring feminism into the picture is that one of the women I admire most (my ex's mother) is a feminist--and radically so--who has a serious "essentialist" bent. We used to get into way heavy discussions because of this bent (she knows I'm a CD, by the way). She's an "essentialist," in that she believes that there are fundamental and essential differences between women and men and that those very differences inevitably lead to irreconcilable and incompatible outlooks onto society and onto the world itself.

In her view, just the fact that testosterone courses through my body increases, for example, the likelihood that I'll commit, at some point in my life, a violent offense. Just the fact that I was born with XY chromosomes and with a penis between my legs increases, she says, the likelihood that I'll get a higher wage for equal work.

I don't like this kind of thinking. Although I'll concede that it's possible to generalize sex-based and gender-based characteristics (and I tend to do this, myself), the exceptions are just too numerous for me to swallow this kind of essentialism without a grimace. Maybe "sex is destiny" for the old guard but, these days? I don't think so. There's just too much of who we are--as both men and women (and, more pointedly, as both masculine and feminine persons)--that's a product of both our brains and of the social customs we grew up with, rather than just of our endocrine glands and genetic makeup, to make me believe there's no possibility of the sexes treading common ground.

This woman believes there will only be and end to war and conflict and violence once the male half of the species has been removed from the picture (and, yes, she follows very closely the current research in parthenogenetic techniques). Remove the men? You'd have a war right there on your hands, I told her.

In the 1970's, Thomas Berger wrote a novel called A Regiment Of Women. It's a fluffy but fun to read piece of fiction that, I imagine, was written in a satirical vein to "goose" feminists. It depicts a society in every way exactly like our own, except for the fact that gender roles are completely reversed. Men are the "pretty playthings" and "housewives" of women (who control the economy and hold the reins of political power) and they dress the part, too (Charlie, the novel's main protagonist, is a lowly secretary and his boss--a woman--insists he wear the sexiest skirts and heels possible). There's no longer any war in this society (however, men are still required to "do their social duty" by reporting to institutional "milking farms"--and I'll leave the details to the imagination). Men are required to have breasts in order to fill out their bras (yes, surgical implants) and I won't even talk about what a visit to the (of course, female) doctor's or therapist's office entails. 8-[

The point, though, is that this is one example--even if only a fanciful one--of where essentialism can lead to. To lay down in concrete and forever highlight the assumed differences between men and women (regardless of who's locked into this or that gender role) doesn't--and cannot--lead to a society that espouses even its own ideals of harmony and social justice. There's always more that unites us than separates us; the sexes are more complementary than they are "opposite."

I find that too many feminists wish to sweep men out of the picture with the back of their hand. Pretty much as men have done to women for the past couple of millenia. I just think this kind of "tit-for-tatness" is a bit childish and unproductive. This thing about our CD'ing because we want to emulate women might be a wee bit simplistic, too. Maybe, in a way, we're "bridge-builders" between the sexes. And I don't mean just male heterosexual crossdressers, no; I mean any person--male or female--whose identity is gender-variant. I know that feminists (especially those with a bone to pick... cf. Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire) will not take kindly to this idea. Neither will most people who view men and women as being--essentially--two distinct breeds (cf. your own comment, Georgia, about the "Neanderthalette" in you bristling at the perceived invasion of territory crossdressing males are guilty of).

Anyway, as always, I find this a fascinating topic, one sure to generate at least a little bit of heat. And a little bit of heat between men and women is always good, no? :)

Love,
CJ
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Post by Loretta Ann »

Hi all

Georgia. I must say I am impressed by that of which you have written in this thread. Very well done.

This thread has also escaped my radar for the past while.
There is one thing that has grabbed my attention here. And that is the equal pay for equal service. Does such a thing exist? even among men? Certainly not 100% of the time.

I have read statements to the effect that thankfully it is easy for women to (outwork) men by twice as much.

My response to this is really????

Then prove it by contracting yourself out to the employer. The employer will hire the person that can get the job done the quickest and cheapest way possible, while maintaining a certain level of quality performance. Therefore if women are able to out preform men it should not be difficult to take most of the jobs, No?

It is quite one thing to work for someone else and demand a certain wage, and quite another to be the employer, and make enough money to pay the employers what they demand, while paying benefits. If you don't believe that try it, it can be quite the eye opener.
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Post by Georgia(SO) »

Ya know, this has been one of my favorite threads on this forum. It is an issue that keeps popping up in my mind, again and again. As a feminist, why am I fundamentally unnerved when my guy is wearing sexy clothes. In fact, it goes much much deeper than that. I started to write "sexy (read slutty) clothes)"... and had to stop and think about why short skirts and minimal tops are considered slutty, and then my philosophical little brain took over and began to wonder why women's clothes and styles are EVER considered slutty - when was the last time you saw a guy spiffed up in guy clothes and said, "Oh my, doesn't he look like a slut????" Way too much thinking on just a second cup of coffee...

-g
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Post by Xenia »

Georgia(SO) wrote:... began to wonder why women's clothes and styles are EVER considered slutty - when was the last time you saw a guy spiffed up in guy clothes and said, "Oh my, doesn't he look like a slut????" Way too much thinking on just a second cup of coffee...

-g
Hi everyone,

what a great thread, indeed.
When was the last time I saw a man looking slutty. Uh, this morning on the bus - and before that several at the train station, then the day before countless on the main shopping mall.
Yes, I for one, often think that many men look slutty – and in my view much more than most women.
But of course all such judgements work only on a purely subjective level, as no one has defined what a slutty look actually involves (and how that changes with fashion).

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Xenia
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Post by Xenia »

Hi

I just try to get some thoughts on the monitor - I do hope, that it doesn't sound offensive (if then it might be more my unability to express better in a foreign language, English)
CJ wrote:... one of the women I admire most (my ex's mother) is a feminist--and radically so-- [...] She's an "essentialist," in that she believes that there are fundamental and essential differences between women and men and that those very differences inevitably lead to irreconcilable and incompatible outlooks onto society and onto the world itself.
I see also a problem in such ideologically bent people, who don't like to take in, that nature/biology is one part of the picture (note, that I am not saying that it is all or most of the picture). Both ways of generalizing, stereotyping about gender - the essentialist and the biologist way - seem to me wrong: Sex/gender to me are obviously a blend of both.
The tragic thing with "essential" radical feminism is, that on the one hand biology is denied (all gender/gender difference is socially constructed) - partly in a intellectual antipathy about natural sciences. As the researcher Annica Dahlström, a neuro biologist, put it recently in a TV-interview (I have to paraphrase from memory): "If the social constructionists and gender theorist would think/know as much about neuro-biology as I think about social issues of gender - we could talk on the same level."
On the other hand the essentailists deny the social construction theory by separating women and men strictly on biological (how else?) criteria (women only...).
That leads to amazing consequences that in some feminist circles trans-men are welcome, as once-biologically-female, once-lesbians, though they are clearly masculine-identified and testosterone-swallowing, quite often gay (androphile), while trans-women are being excluded, harrassed etc.

One should think that the time of this uninformed, ideologically based essentialism would be over (Geri Nettick's "Portrait of a Lesbian Transsexual" describes the situation in feminist and lesbian circles 20-30 years ago), but Erica Zander, "TransActions", reports this still from the late 1990s in a liberal country like Sweden.
Both books are warmly recommended because the describe the trans-experience from a transsexual, translesbian, feminist perspective.
In her view, just the fact that testosterone courses through my body increases, for example, the likelihood that I'll commit, at some point in my life, a violent offense. Just the fact that I was born with XY chromosomes and with a penis between my legs increases, she says, the likelihood that I'll get a higher wage for equal work.
This is an example that that feminst lets biology prevail in her argument ...
[... ]This woman believes there will only be and end to war and conflict and violence once the male half of the species has been removed from the picture (and, yes, she follows very closely the current research in parthenogenetic techniques). Remove the men? You'd have a war right there on your hands, I told her.
If she thinks like that, then she is outright and outrageously inhuman, and I wouldn't hesitate to call someone like that a "feminazi".
Has on the contrary any patriarchy ever put forward the idea that erasing women from earth would be desirable? (Unregarding the answer, I regard patriarchy in any case as a bad thing, but neither do I think that an all-to-often idealized matriarchy would be better.)
[...] I find that too many feminists wish to sweep men out of the picture with the back of their hand. Pretty much as men have done to women for the past couple of millenia.
May be it is good to remember, that the 1-2 % of men, who are in in power, rule not only over 99,999 % of women but also over 98-99 % men. So the question is only to certain degree about sex and gender – it is about power. Which is why women in power are not better or worse than men, "only" less frequent.
Anyway, as always, I find this a fascinating topic, one sure to generate at least a little bit of heat. And a little bit of heat between men and women is always good, no? :)

Love,
CJ
I am more a cooler person and leave the heat to the others :)

Best

Xenia
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