Passing vs. Man in a dress

[DonnaT]

Georgia, I started to answer your question yesterday, but had a hard time understanding the need myself.

Actually, I don't need to pass. In fact, having been in a public crowd once, I know I don't pass when fully dressed.

So, I reckon it comes to a question of why do I put on a wig and makeup. And most of the time, I don't, yet I do like to.

But it's not all about the clothes, or else I wouldn't have this desire to wear perfume, or paint my nails. (Hmmm, went back and read my earlier post, and it sounds like my earlier post doesn't it?)

OK, I'll try to go deeper.

The Why?

I look at the term 'crossdresser' as being a misnomer, for me and many others that dress in fem clothing. We all know how the term 'crossdresser' derived from the term 'transvestite', wherein both are merely labels indicating what we "do", not what we are.

Instead, I consider myself to be 'dual gendered' or 'bigendered'. Somewhere between male and female. I think if people had put more thought into it, way back when, "bigendered" (or similar) would be the commonly used term instead of 'crossdresser.

And the female part has a need to express itself, and loves fem, things just like a woman does. The male part has no dislike for the male appearance I portray everyday. Taking the two together, I am clearly not just one or the other, and not TS (not part of the question but figure it's coming ).

If I looked in the mirror, naked, and found my male parts to be disgusting or I hated them, then I'd be TS.

So, do I need to pass? No. Do I wish I could pass? Sometimes.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Georgia,

I just want to add a little something. Reading your reply above made think a little further. You say it never occured to you to want to be a man. Well, it never occured to me either. Regardless of how I feel inside, and regardless of how I perceive my core identity, I'm told I'm a man... on the basis of my genitals, secondary sexual characteristics, and genetic makeup. These are all physical aspects that say nothing about my being not male or female but masculine or feminine. Remember that old song, some of the lyrics of which go like this: "Just one look, that's all it took. Just one look..." I guess my point is that this doesn't work too well when it comes to a trans-identified person (or, hell! anybody, for that matter!); it takes more than just one look. Maybe, just maybe, our need to pass as a woman is a way of getting people to take a second look. And maybe we're considered socially transgressive because, on the one hand, people are loathe to admit that, as a result of that one look they gave you, they made a mistake about who you really are, deep down inside and, on the other, in a culture obssessed with appearance, it's an unacknowledged taboo to defy that obssession by insisting we not be restrained by its dictates (e.g., that a man look like this and a woman look like that... TG folks are proof that a man or woman can look like either, or none, or both simultaneously). This bothers people.

It may have never occured to you, Georgia, to want to be a man, but that's not the real question, anyway (crossdressers don't want to be women, as a rule). They want the opportunity to be feminine men, in a cultural context where male femininity is still very much frowned upon. If I cannot express my femininity as a man, I'll certainly try to express it as a woman then. You know, Georgia, it may have not even occured to you to want to be masculine either (let alone being a man). If not, why not? Part of the answer, I think, is because maleness and masculinity are so overvalued in a patriarchically structured society that it becomes a lot less icky for a woman to display overvalued masculine characteristics than it is for a man to display undervalued feminine ones. In fact, not only is female masculinity not frowned upon, it's often actively encouraged (and I'm not talking developmental psychology or sexual orientation, here, but gender roles and social norms). The phallocentric world we live in trips out on the likes of Margaret Thatcher, a genetic woman who was also politically male to the bone. The males in her entourage loved it. Nobody was fooled by the fact that she wore floral print dresses.

But I digress. Sorry. My point is, the clothes, makeup, jewelry (and, indeed, "passing" itself) are merely tools for a crossdresser in his attempt to have the world relate to him in a way that is congruent with his gender identity (something, by the way, that, as many have said here more than once, is not of our own making). It's an "acceptable" way for a man--in this culture, at this time--to express the feminine characteristics of his personality. My hope is that this kind of "psychological lockdown" will change in times to come. I think that, maybe even in large part due to the existence of people such as myself and other CD'S, TG's, and TS's who are willing to put themselves out there, it will change. It already is changing.

Now, where did I leave that leather handbag and those stilettos?

Love,
CJ

P.S.

Thanks, by the way, Georgia, for the compliments. No, I don't write for a living but many of my friends are pushing me to take this talent more seriously. I just might, someday.

[Loretta Ann]

May I ask a stupid question? For those of you for whom it is important to pass, what is the point of passing? I don't mean this rudely and I'm not being sarcastic or anything. I mean it sincerely - why is it important, other than safety, etc.

oops, hit the submit button by mistake... So, I was saying, I wonder why it is important to pass. And are those folks who need to pass more likely to be (geez, I don't have the words for this) those people who seriously consider transitioning than those who are very comfortable with their boy parts?

Or is it that it is a kick to have fooled people? Again, I don't mean this sarcastically. Ya know, when I used to be in theater, it was very important to make the character believable. So I'm wondering if there is some sort of private payoff in knowing that you pulled off a believable character.

Please forgive me in advance. Sometimes I feel like the questions I ask may be offensive. I don't mean them that way. I'm trying to understand emotions and drives that I don't have and so the questions come out funky on occasion. Thanks for being patient with me...

-g(so)

Georgia,

Although I do not have a need to pass, I have a thought for you that might shed some light on this.

Imagine if you will not being allowed to go out in public dressed the way that enables you to feel the most natural, and/or comfortable. It is only natural to want to be yourself where ever you are.

And given the nature of our world if one is going to indulge they don’t have much choice than to attempt to pass. Passing is seen as the easiest avenue.

I would find it interesting to see just how many of us would attempt to pass as a woman if that were not the situation? I know I wouldn’t even think about it.

Love,
Darlene.

[Kay(SO)]

Popping in briefly. I've been so busy I can barely breathe! I just wanted to tell you what my husband says to me about passing.

When going out in particular it's important for him to pass or "blend" as he puts it. He just wants to go into a store and look like he belongs there in a dress and have no one wonder what his gender is. He wants to be convincing to others as a female. In fact, he said that blending for him is the ultimate goal.

In the early days of our relationship I made the mistake of tellling him that he could have plastic surgery and would never pass or blend like that. What did I know? He was devastated and didn't dress for a long time. He's also never forgotten it. I had no idea at the time the hurt I caused him. Otherwise I would never have said it outloud. Truth or not it affected how he sees himself now when dressed and he gets depressed from time to time thinking "what's the point?" Anyhoo, that's just what he has told me and our experiences.

Kay(SO)

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

Kay(SO) wrote:

In the early days of our relationship I made the mistake of tellling him that he could have plastic surgery and would never pass or blend like that. What did I know? He was devastated and didn't dress for a long time. He's also never forgotten it. I had no idea at the time the hurt I caused him. Otherwise I would never have said it outloud. Truth or not it affected how he sees himself now when dressed and he gets depressed from time to time thinking "what's the point?" Anyhoo, that's just what he has told me and our experiences.

Kay(SO)

I wrote a very long post to respond to this thread before Kay wrote this, but my computer locked up and I lost the post. It was late so I did not rewrite it, but after seeing what Kay wrote I feel what I have to say is important.

What the theme of my original post was, was that a great part of my need not to pass(if I can say it that way), is out of necessity. I realized when I came out that I was not going to be passable. So? If I made passing as my goal, than it would mean I could never be fulfilled.

I am sure if I were or could be passable, my feelings might be quite different than they are. I accept my circumstance because no accepting it means setting myself up to be let down, disappointed, and unfulfilled. However, by making it ok if I don't pass, I can still dress up, shave my body, wear jewelry and makeup and feel pretty.

I beleive feeling pretty is an emotion that I can not feel dressed up as a man. There is nothing pretty about it. One only needs to look around the men's department at any department store to see just how boring and uncolorful it is. You can look in any other direction of the store, and see color.

So having never been passable, I don't miss it. I have never felt the thrill of not being noticed. Who knows, perhaps I need the attention of being noticed, I don't know. I know I am absolutely not bothered by people noticing I am a crossdresser.

But even not being passable, I am still able to not feel my maleness. When in a dress or skirt, and makeup on, and now my new wig which I have started wearing a lot more, I don't feel like I am expected to be a man. People are nicer to me, women don't feel threatened by me, and now I notice that women touch me a lot more. They will grab my hand to inspect my nails or look at a bracelet, or grab my ear to inspect an earring.

And it feels perfectly normal. Not a sexual turn on, but more like "one of the girls". I truely feel more accepted into the circle of women, than I ever felt accepted into the circle of men.

So perhaps Kay(SO)'s husband can have an attitude like mine, realizing that he can express the part of himself that craves to look like a woman, without having to actually fool anyone.

When we played house as kids, or other make beleive games where we could use the minimum of props and still play the role with those others playing or watching, accepting our role, even though we don't really look like who we are portraying, crossdressing is the same for me. It seems that those watching are willing to accept my role even though I do not exactly express the role I am playing exactly in terms of being passable. I beleive this is because I am not acting, just being me. That seems more important than actually being convincing in the looks dept.

Also in Kay's circumstance she may be wrong. She may just be too close to her husband to ever see him actually as a female. He will never be passable in her eyes. That does not mean he could not be seen as quite passable by those who are not close to him, and even more so for strangers who really have no reason to pay him a lot of attention to begin with.

Anyway, I guess my bottom line is, if I thought I could be passable I would make a strong effort to pass. Because after all, I want to be a girl, if not look like one.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Paige]

All my sisters,

I have been enlightened by CJ and I just want to give you all the opportunity to reread what she had to say so very eloquently. (highlights are mine)

It may have never occurred to you, Georgia, to want to be a man, but that's not the real question, anyway (crossdressers don't want to be women, as a rule). They want the opportunity to be feminine men, in a cultural context where male femininity is still very much frowned upon. If I cannot express my femininity as a man, I'll certainly try to express it as a woman then. You know, Georgia, it may have not even occurred to you to want to be masculine either (let alone being a man). If not, why not? Part of the answer, I think, is because maleness and masculinity are so overvalued in a patriarchally structured society that it becomes a lot less icky for a woman to display overvalued masculine characteristics than it is for a man to display undervalued feminine ones. In fact, not only is female masculinity not frowned upon, it's often actively encouraged (and I'm not talking developmental psychology or sexual orientation, here, but gender roles and social norms).

I will read and reread this quote but I do believe it speaks volumes to how I feel.

I just love this forum and the people in it!!!

Paige

[Kathy]

Hi All!

This thread has gone way beyond my original question. The depth of the discussion and the honesty of the questions and responses is just wonderful. Thank you to all who have participated so far.

Anyway, I guess my bottom line is, if I thought I could be passable I would make a strong effort to pass. Because after all, I want to be a girl, if not look like one.

This is where Elizabeth and I are very different. At 5'10" and 160lbs, I wear size 8 pants and size 12 tops. If I was to shave my facial hair and have a makeup job done by someone with experience, I think I probably could pass on looks. Mannerisms would give me away in no time. But, I don't feel like a girl nor do I want to be a girl. So, why should I want to look like one?

Where Elizabeth and I are very much alike is in our desire to just be who we are. I find women's clothing to be more comfortable than the equivelent men's wear and, yes, I find a skirt to be more comfortable than pants. I also agree that the selection in the women's dept. is much more colorful. Is it any wonder why, when dressed in "male mode", many of us use the term "en drab"?

Now, why I am drawn to wear women's clothing in the first place is still the unanswered, and quite compelling, question. But, rather than lose any sleep over it, I am now content to just enjoy the ride.

Someone said something to the effect that many of us seem to come to terms with crossdressing as we reach mid-life. I will say that describes my own situation. Maybe, as we realize that there are fewer years ahead of us than behind, we also figure out that life is just too short to allow ourselves to be ruled by the whims of others.

At least, that's how I feel!

Love,
Kathy

[CJ]

Hi all,

Paige,

Thanks for the compliment. Although I can (and sometimes do) accept compliments graciously, the truth is that, in this case, whatever light it is that enlightened you belongs not to me nor to any one other person here but to all of us together who are exploring these things called "life," "society," and "the self."

There is so much here, in the things people have said on this forum, that has not only given me pause but actually stopped me in my tracks and forced me to think and to delve within myself that I cannot even begin to know whom it is I should thank, if not every single one of you. And I do thank every single one of you. Thank you!

Socrates once said that "the unexamined life is not worth living." I'm inclined to think he was right (and that never was hemlock used so horribly). All of us here are trying to examine our lives. And this process is enlightenment enough for me.

Love,
CJ

[Kay(SO)]

Elizabeth,

Thanks for putting your perspective and feelings out there. I really appreciate it. I wanted to comment about two things that you brought up.

You wrote:

So perhaps Kay(SO)'s husband can have an attitude like mine, realizing that he can express the part of himself that craves to look like a woman, without having to actually fool anyone.

I really wish he would have that attitude because I see him setting himself up all the time. It's one of the reasons I have worked really hard with him to make him achieve the best look that he can. I've bought him wigs and cut and fixed them, taught him more about beard cover and how to put on his makeup, made him hips, bought him numerous, more flattering outfits, taught him how to present (carry a purse, smoke, walk, sit, etc...) in a more feminine manner. All so that he could feel like he is coming closer to his "goal."

And I think you're right that sometimes I am too close to him to see him as anything other than him, even when he's dressed. The horror is that there have been times when we've been out that he got "made" and even laughed at by some college age boys. I'm surprised he ever got over it or went out in public again. That's how sensitive the issue of passing is to him. It's important to him and always has been.

One reason he values me as his mate is because I have done all of those things to help him. Once he told me what he wanted, I did what any caretaking individual would do. He says all the time that I think like a man; wanting to "fix" everything. Probably why I'm a therapist. I just can't be HIS therapist but as his wife will do everything I can to prevent him from feeling pain. Okay, so I'm going a little off topic now.

Anyway, I think at this point he accepts that he can enjoy his feminine side, look lovely, sometimes even pretty, sometimes passing, and now even if he doesn't he can still enjoy CDing. Just in different ways than pushing for that old ultimate goal. His attitude has changed over the past 7 years with me and he has become so much more accepting of himself and CDing in general. When we first got together he would cry with shame and beg for it to go away. Not anymore and I would like to think that in some small way I contributed to his self-acceptance. Okay, I'm done blathering on. thanks again!

Kay(SO)

[Georgia(SO)]

Wow. It always amazes me how deeply we all dig down to explain the feelings and drives that we have. There's a lot here to think about and I'm on deadline again so I will have to come back to this.

I will say that something CJ said up there somewhere about being "dual-gendered" really turned on the light bulb for me. Dual-gender I can understand. Of course, that is what ya'll have been saying all along, in other words - but "dual-gendered" I can grasp.

I'm outta here for a several days - work is piling up and past the point of procrastination. Thank you for all your thoughts. You are all very good to me...

Ya'll have fun now, ya hear?
-g(so)

[Linda S]

May I ask a stupid question? For those of you for whom it is important to pass, what is the point of passing? I don't mean this rudely and I'm not being sarcastic or anything. I mean it sincerely - why is it important, other than safety, etc.

oops, hit the submit button by mistake... So, I was saying, I wonder why it is important to pass. And are those folks who need to pass more likely to be (geez, I don't have the words for this) those people who seriously consider transitioning than those who are very comfortable with their boy parts?

Or is it that it is a kick to have fooled people? Again, I don't mean this sarcastically. Ya know, when I used to be in theater, it was very important to make the character believable. So I'm wondering if there is some sort of private payoff in knowing that you pulled off a believable character.

Please forgive me in advance. Sometimes I feel like the questions I ask may be offensive. I don't mean them that way. I'm trying to understand emotions and drives that I don't have and so the questions come out funky on occasion. Thanks for being patient with me...

-g(so)

Not a stupid question at all! It's a very fundamental and important one.

Speaking only for myself:

Looking like a woman who I find attractive has always been my only goal, even in my early years of crossdressing when I just dressed in private. Now I go out often, and after much practice and experimenting I'm able to pass pretty well.

For me, the joy of passing comes from believing that people see me as a reasonably attractive woman. Although I'm completely straight, the occasional admiring glance I get from a guy is a tremendous thrill, and even just being ignored in public (especially by the much-feared bevy of teenage girls) is a great pleasure.

Here's the main reason: women do not find me attractive as a man, so my natural desire to be wanted by the opposite sex can't be fulfilled. At best, I'm simply invisible to women, and at worst, their opinion of me as a potential date is expressed by a groan which sounds something like "Eeeww".

I would much prefer to "pass" as a good-looking guy, but ironically it's much easier for me to be attractive when posing as something I'm not - a woman - than it is for me improve my appearance as a man.

Another reason why passing is so important to me is that it's a way to have a relationship with a woman who I find attractive - not in the usual sense of meeting her and winning her affection, which I can't do, but by actually becoming her. In all aspects of crossdressing - hair, clothes, makeup, body language, I try to transform myself into my image of a woman who I'd like to date. In fact, when I'm out in public, I even try to think of myself as being that woman.

You ask if I enjoy creating a believable character. Yes, I do, and your comparison to an actor is right on target. There's a tremendous sense of accomplishment when my efforts succeed in creating an illusion so radically different from reality. But that's really secondary to my basic reasons for trying to pass. Outside of crossdressing, I don't have any desire to appear as someone else like an actor would.

Linda