What kind of man are you?

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

I have read a lot about what kind of girls we all are. I have read a great deal about how we became crossdressers. I have read about how we have dealt with our relationships. But one of the things I have not read about, perhaps because we all avoid it to some degree, is what kind of men are we?

My brother, while disowning me for crossdressing, said I was a "man's man". Someone he looked up to, even though he was the elder brother. And while I propagated this huge lie about who I was, I still tried to be a person of virtue. My son told me that "for someone who dresses like a girl, you know more about being a man than most men". I think what he meant was that I had always taught him and others around me virtue.

To be honest, to keep your word. To avoid fighting if you possibly can, but there are times one must fight to protect ones self. Not to steal, even when no one is harmed. If you find something of someone elses, return it to them, even if they don't give you a reward.

Not to start rumors and not to beleive rumors about others. Give each person a fair chance to represent themselves. Be on time. Do your best even if you think you are over worked and under paid. Be dependable to those who depend on you. There is no glory in being sick. Basically, my philosophical beleif about what being a good person means to me.

I have been told by my ex- brother in law who not only lived with me for a while but also worked for me, that I taught him more about being a man than any other person. I have been told by men who worked for me that I was a "stand up guy". I have had men cry on my shoulder when I offered an understanding shoulder to cry on.

So it is funny to me since those values are still the values I have today, except one major difference. I don't feel like a man at all and never did. It was all just a personna. I was very unemotional, very driving of those who worked both for me or with me. I was a very demanding person. I worked hard and I expected others to work hard to.

But that was not who I was. It was who I thought I was expected to be. Because I did not know how to act like a man, I thought I had to be the best at everything, so I could measure up against "real men". I was stressed beyond beleif all the time. I could not understand how this looked so easy for other men.

Others seemed perfectly happy to be medeocre. Doing only enough not to get fired. Missing work at will, not calling in. Getting laid off and not seeming to be worried. I just did not understand why what seemed so easy for everyone else, was so difficult for me.

But deep inside I knew what the problem was. I was trying so hard to make sure my transgenderedness was not detected, that I way over compensated. I took my first job as an electrician apprentice when I was 19. I lied and said I had 2½ years experience, when really I had almost none. After just over a year I quit, went to another company where I told them I was a journeyman. I read books about electrical theory and started reading the code books.

After 6 months of working as a journeyman, my brother who was 2 years older than me had been injured on the job and I knew more about the job than any other person. It was the Marvel Comics headquarters new offices. Their old one burned down, and time was of the essence. I was called upon to finish the job as the Forman. I was 21.

I worked as an electrical forman from that point on. I taught myself to read blueprints, skematics, submittals and seemed to have a natual ability to get people to work harder than they ever had before. I was able to get more work done with less than other forman. By the time I was 22, I was making almost $40k a year.

Everywhere I went I had to be the best, had to make the most, had to get more done than any other person. I was a Master Elctrician at 33, Ran the 4th largest electrical contracting company in Wyoming, and at age 34, convinced 4 millionaires to give me the company, cosign my accounts, pay me a large sum in advance, write the whole thing off as a loss. I could finish all thier jobs, do all thier future work, and they would never be at risk. They could bid all the same jobs, make the same profit, but risk nothing.

They agreed. It was a good deal for everyone. I ran my own company for 6 years until the recession started in Wyoming in 1999 when the pacific rim ecomomy collapsed. I tried to wait it out, but eventually ran out of money. I moved back to California, went back to running work. I was promoted to General Forman in three months, the highest level an elctrcian can attain in the Union until I was forced to stop working in November of 2002 because of my illness.

In the end, all the striving, all the hard work, all the stress, all the worrying, all the everything, was all for nothing. I lost my company, I lost my job, I lost most of my material possessions, I lost my health and finally I lost my marriage.

All the effort I put into trying to be a "good man" was nothing but a sham to hide who I was, not just from everyone else, but from myself. It turns out I am a way better crossdresser than I ever was a man. I have never been less stressed and I have never been happier with who I am and where I am going.

What kind of man am/was I? It turns out, not much at all. But I am a very happy and contented person. I have remarried to a wonderful woman who loves me for who I am. I am going to start college next semester to become a physicist, and now I only live one day at a time.

What kind of man are/were you?

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Beauty]

Hi Elizabeth,

That post was sooo deep!

I was the kind of guy who never was a guy. I've always been protected by men my whole life because they knew I couldn't really fight, but I kept a face on that you couldn't tell I was weak unless you got to know me.

Throughout school and life I've always had men friends who protected me because of the advice I'd give them. Being able to understand the male psyche and being able to think differently than men helped me explain things to them that their wives or girlfriends said, but they couldn't understand. Though their SOs said what I said, I was able to guy it up. This endeared those men to me and they always became protective.

Some men hated this about me and would do everything in their power to find a reason to dislike me. I've never discovered why this is, but some men just don't like me. It doesn't matter about their race, height, or upbringing. Some men just have this wall up when I talk to them. It's funny that they don't see I can see it, but I can and I no longer fight to get to know these people. Some of them come to me in some way for advice anyway, but for the most part they keep a distance.

I was a guy who could appreciate things that women could, but when women would draw the line between men and women I would get out my nail file and start cutting into the great wall or great divide because such a broad brush can't be applied with people who are TG'd out there. Of course I can't explain it and most of the points these women make are oh so valid about men. I was included in these generalizations sometimes because I was raised to be a guy. So although I can sidestep most of the innuendo sometimes I'd duck to be met by a pie in the face that was dead on target.

I'm a guy who loves his mom more than any other woman on the planet. I'm a guy who was raised by a mom who taught me so much about acceptance. Because of the way I treat my mom and the way she allows me to give her compliments, gifts, accolades for raising me and unconditional love I have been blessed. She taught me that being a good guy equals being a good person. My love for her and her love for me has shot me into the stratosphere of acceptance and unconditional love. She's also taught me when to be protective of myself and those I love. When women would see the way I'd take care of my mom they'd know I wouldn't ever harm them or cause them any sleepless nights wondering where I was. My respect for women was gentlemanly and I think my mom taught me how to be. I know that women always pick up on it. It's not holding a door open, it's listening to their ideas and no matter how hard it was to listen or understand what they were saying I was able to adapt, but there were time when I'd be pushed for the sake of pushing and I'd stand my ground because as my mom says, "A woman always will need a man sometimes." I'm sure she meant spouse, boyfriend, step dad, uncle, father, or friend in that statement, but she was really stating thinking of a woman's mate.

In the end I was a normal guy. I was Peter Average Guy. I'm happy I was and wouldn't trade a day as the guy I was for anything.

Thanks Elizabeth!

Beauty

[Gelinda]

Liz:

I am not going to make this one about me as of yet to answer your true question you are presenting:

You really opened your heart and allowed it to pour out into that post above. I have one general question.

You made the post about being a man. An you seem to be really done on yourself for being a Man's man all those years. Well were you not being the Person (not Man or Woman) that you in your mind needed to BE>

Just the observation from someone who thinks off you as a mentor in this world of indifference and pain that we travel. But I do believe that we put too much thought into gender instead of just being what we are a PERSON.

Gelinda.

[CJ]

Hi all,

As a man, I often was (and often still am) "the Great Conciliator." People--friends, family, colleagues--come to me for my mediating skills. They come to me not for my skills in helping them solve a problem but for my skills in getting everyone to sit around the same table. People who only know me partially (or very little) often see my sidestepping of aggressive confrontation as "unmanly."

Growing up, my younger brother (who's 13 months my junior) and I always went to the same schools. In the schoolyard, dealing with the neighbourhood bullies, he always stood up for me when we got picked on. I was often pegged as a "sissy" for refusing to defend myself with my fists but my little bro had no such qualms.

In my first relationships, it was rough going for a while as I sought a balance between allowing my rather sensitive nature a free rein while at the same time being "enough of a man" that my partner wouldn't be totally turned off by my somewhat passive character.

Generally, I've always tended to shy away from sports and any activity that required a showy machismo. My "competitiveness quotient" is extremely low whereas my "co-operation quotient" is very high. All my life, I've been drawn to pursuits steeped in my own rich brand of imagination. I'd spend hours drawing (and I'm still very good at it), reading, making up stories of my own, and playing pretend (yes, I was often "the girl" in these games--even if only in my own mind). I listened to music--all kinds of music--almost all the time. I've always loved watching life. I have so many memories of myself, on all fours, in a woods somewhere, spying on spiders; watching cats' whiskers twitching in their sleep; crouching by holes in the ground, at the base of tree stumps, waiting for whoever lived inside to come out and play with me. In other words, I was (and, to a large extent, still am) a "watcher" rather than a "doer." This, for many people, translates into an "unmanly" lack of ambition. It's no use explaining to these people that my one over-riding ambition is to be the best person I can be and, in my case, this doesn't necessarily include traditional feats of social prowess (career, marriage, kids, house, two-car garage, golden retirement).

My idea of a good time is a three- or four-hour conversation in a café somewhere, where life, love, values, and the fascinating ups and downs of our time on earth are the subjects of that conversation more than are football scores, political follies, and the latest technological gadgets. As you can all guess, I'm an "identity" freak, as well. In conversations (and, in its own way, this very forum, for example, would count as one big conversation), I'm learning to discover what it means to be me, what it means to others to be who they are, and, generally, what it means to be a human being. I can't help but feel that more "superficial," "outward-pushing," "other-directed," "manly" pursuits only get in the way of this.

I used to think that "the kind of man I am" is inadequate by the social standards I used to more or less reflexively cling to. Since I started examining both myself as well as what I believed those standards to be, I've come to see that the kind of man I am is no longer as important a consideration as is the kind of person I am. Oddly enough (or maybe not) many of the insights I've gained in this regard are the result of my interactions and of my relationships and friendships with women. And I'm totally fine with that.

In the end, however I see myself as a man, and whatever kind of man I think I am, I realize that other people will always see only what they want to see. And, although it's taking me a while to get there, I'm totally fine with that, too. The only "kind of man" that matters to me is the kind of man I want to be.

Great thread, Elizabeth. Where do you get these ideas, you?

Love,
CJ

[Virginia]

Damn, you folks never cease to amaze me with your insight, love and empathy, for each other!!! If we had to name any two members of this forum who have had the most dynamic influence from the stand point of making us expand our understanding of who we were are or can become, it is - at least for me - Gelinda and Elizabeth! I was considereing a rather lengthy post here, but instead I will say that first I think you two are saying the same thing only a bit differently. We are here Yes! on our own "Magical Mystery Tour!" but we have the opportunity almost daily to reach out to others and lend them a helping hand even if we are struggling in the depths of our own dispair and as long as we are willing to do that in some small way we will continue to make this "trip around the sun" at least a bit more palateable for someone!
Love you all!
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

What kind of a man am/was I? Sorry ladies can’t answer that one. Are we as guilty as those we think are less educated? What part of (WO) is different than man? We all are a mixture. I don’t see myself as a man. I see myself as a person. A man is what the (larger part) of rest of the world sees me as. Their loss.

The best way to describe myself is to say what you see now is the exact opposite of what you would have seen about 25 years ago. I was timid did not know how to look after myself emotionally, and was somewhat like CJ. described. A mediator; (a fixer upper) person; always patching up other peoples problems. A peace maker (which I became very successful at) After all, that is where I got my self worth from. I was what you would call a nobody.

No great worldly recognizable achievements, other than learning some hard lessons from the school of hard knocks. However during the last 25 years I have managed to build myself a pretty good reputation

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

Beauty,

I have alawys wondered what it would have been like to come from a loving home. I don't ever recall my mother or father saying they loved me. I remember my mother saying frequently that I was nothing more than an accident and one of her favorite sayings was "I wish I never had kids". My mother would push you away if you tried to hug her saying "leave me alone" almost as if she were afraid she might get attached to us.

I remember when I used to love my mother, when I was a little boy. When she made me feel safe, but that changed to indifference and finally estrangement when I refused to see the world her way as a condition of seeing her.

In my adult life I have had no support system. No one to fall back on. No one to help me out if things got rough. When one has no fall back position if forces one to never fail. That is a huge amount of pressure which had a lot to do with my need to be the best.

I think you are so lucky to not only come from a loving family, but also to still have such feelings for your mother. It must be a great feeling and you seem so secure in yourself and who you are. This makes you a beacon for others who are looking to be ok with themselves. Your role here is pivitol and has made a huge difference in the lives of so many, myself included. Thanks for sharing.

Gee,

You must misread my words. I am not down on myself at all. I was lost and did not know what to do. I applied my value system the best I could and I am not ashamed of my life or myself. My knack for getting people to work harder had to do with something I understood. I built people up instead of tearing them down. I congradulated and praised those who worked hard, and I encouraged those who did not. I showed people that something as dull as work could be fun, and a great source of self esteem. They worked hard, to feel a sense of accomplishment and it made them feel better about being a member of "Slavery Inc.". I am not down on the man I was. It is just a recognition that I didn't know how to be a man, so I had to push myself way harder than I needed to and in the end, I gained nothing for it.


CJ,

I was number 6 of 8 children with the latter two coming 8 and 10 years after me, both girls. I was the "baby" of the family until that time. I had three older brothers two of them just one and two years older than me. Most of the time I was protected from being beat up. However, in hindsight this might not have been such a good thing because people mercilessly teased me. I was the most unpopular kid in my grade school.

I too felt largely inferior and inadequit, but covered for this with a superiority attitude. I knew most people seen through this, but for some reason could not help myself, I feared looking like person I thought I was even more.

I am glad to see you have reached a peace with yourself and the kind of man you are. I feel much the same way and I no longer beat myself up over what actions I took. I did the best I could with what I had to work with. What does Dr Phil always say? "I did the best I could, when I knew better, I did better". That is how I feel and will continue to feel. Thanks for sharing that part of you with us.

Virginia,

I am sorry but I am just not going to be able to agree with you on this one. Not that I don't appreciate you saying I have helped you expand your thinking, but being in the company of the members of this forum can be a rather humbling experience, something I cherish btw. I beleive I could make the same argument for so many here, yourself included. You, CJ, Beauty, Darlene, Gee, Sharon, Love, Curly, Kay just to name a few have posted things that have made me consider so many things I would have never thought of on my own, it is difficult to quantify the ways I have benifited. But it is more than just that. It is a feeling of belonging, it is a feeling that someone wants me to benefit. Because it is those things that make me keep coming back here. Indeed your strength and your courage to face your life head on has inspired and strengthened me on many occasions and gave my journey a name. My Magical Mystery Tour. Thanks for sharing your life with me, and the entire forum.

Darlene,

The reason I put "are/were" was a recognition that some of us here don't see themselves in terms of being a man or a woman necessarily, but a person. Having said that, I doubt you always felt that way. I suspect that there was a time when you thought of yourself as only a man. If that is too presumptious, I apologize, but I was hoping to find out how you saw yourself back in that time, and you answered that. You are correct, I would never have guessed you were the mediator type or passive in any way. I would have guessed you were a more passive introverted type. In any regard, thanks for sharing with all of us.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Loretta Ann]

Darlene wrote:

The best way to describe myself is to say what you see now is the exact opposite of what you would have seen about 25 years ago.

Hey Elizabeth, I doubt you would say I am introverted now? Well what is the opposite?
Elizabeth wrote:

The reason I put "are/were" was a recognition that some of us here don't see themselves in terms of being a man or a woman necessarily, but a person.

The reason for my comment was because their has been so much talk here that wants to separate the two.
Elizabeth wrote:

Having said that, I doubt you always felt that way. I suspect that there was a time when you thought of yourself as only a man.

Again what is the opposite?

You might say that I have had a look at life from both sides of the fence and like myself a whole lot better the way I am now.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Darlene wrote: I was... [a] peace maker (which I became very successful at). After all, that is where I got my self worth from. I was what you would call a nobody.

Darlene, I'm puzzled by the connection you make between being a "peacemaker" and being a "nobody." Can you explain further? I'm intrigued by your suggesting that someone may be contemptible just because they derive their sense of self-worth from knowing they've played a role in helping people understand and appreciate each other. What am I missing here, Darlene? Is there a hidden premise I might find enlightening?



I'll admit I'm feeling targeted--not mad or anything, just targeted--here, seeing as you first compared yourself to me and then went on to qualify that as being a nobody.

Maybe I'm reading this all wrong?

CJ

[Loretta Ann]

I was timid did not know how to look after myself emotionally, and was somewhat like CJ. described. A mediator; (a fixer upper) person; always patching up other peoples problems. A peace maker (which I became very successful at) After all, that is where I got my self worth from. I was what you would call a nobody.

Somewhat like CJ described See those four words CJ. That dose not say as like CJ described.
CJ wrote:

I'm intrigued by your suggesting that someone may be contemptible just because they derive their sense of self-worth from knowing they've played a role in helping people understand and appreciate each other.

Those are not my words I never used them, and I never said that. I thought this thread was about describing ones self? I thought I was free to do that?

I can not elaborate further due to your tendency to miss read what I said. If I was to describe in (more detail) the way I was, the danger that you would interpret that as an attack would be greater than what has taken place here.

I will say this much though. My identity is no longer determined by a need to help anyone. I would feel the same amount of self worth whether I am able to help some one or not. The more I am able to get my own importance out of the way the better off I am. The more I am able to love myself the more I am able to do that. I don’t know if you can understand that or not? And I don’t need to know. In order for me to elaborate more on that, this thread would have to go into the hot topics area as it involves a topic that you and I have been in conflict over before. And I am not about to go there because there is no way I could convince you that what I would say would have any credibility. And it is something I am not interested in attempting to prove because the only way you (or anyone) would be able to understand it would be to experience it for your self. And from what I have read from you it is something you are not interested in pursuing.

Peace.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Darlene,

You're right. This thread is about describing one's self. I'm sorry if you perceived my question as an attack; it wasn't meant as such. Please accept my apologies.

You know, I do my best to be as transparent as possible, to share in the project of trying to understand what makes us tick and I know that you, for one, appreciate the opportunity to see where people are coming from, Darlene--you've said so on more than one occasion. I guess it's just that I sometimes feel as though, by referencing generalities rather than specifics, you're loathe to give other people the same opportunity. And I understand, Darlene, that this is my problem, not yours nor anybody else's. I really do. It just makes it that much harder (for me, at least) to contextualize your own thinking. And, by the way, my need to contextualize someone's thinking doesn't proceed from any dishonourable or malevolent intentions; it merely stems from my desire to understand another person. Surely, that's not a negative thing?

Darlene, you've contributed so much to this forum; your own spiritual steadfastness and dedication to stoic principles (and I say "stoic" in the ancient, noble sense) is a worthy example of what a road to happiness can look like. Certainly to me and--I know this just from witnessing what goes on, here on the forum--to other people, definitely. Yet, I'm struggling to understand where you're coming from, as a person, only because I'm not aware of your hopes, your joys, your sorrows, your dreams, your desires, your needs (I know, for example, that crossdressing helps you have your needs met but you don't say what those needs are). Basically, you're a mystery. I know, I know, so am I and so are many other people here. This is, after all, the internet and not your living room. I also know that, for that very reason, people are hesitant (and, often, rightly so) to reveal too much about themselves. I know this is a concern of yours, Darlene, and I totally respect that. But, in a fairly safe place (as I consider this forum to be), isn't it possible to open ourselves up to others, to share our personal strengths and vulnerabilities, without necessarily going into the kind of personally identifiable details that threaten our anonymity? I, for one, think so.

Please , please , please , Darlene, don't see this as an attack; it isn't. I genuinely care about you and appreciate you for who you are and what you give to others here (and, this, whether or not you even care that I do or not). I don't want this conversation to be bumped into the Hot Topics area; there's no need for that. I just want a dialog. And, yes, in the big scheme of things, my wants (or anybody else's, for that matter) may not count for much but, here, on a discussion board, maybe dialog does, indeed, have a place.

You know, Darlene, as I've told Beauty before, I would love--genuinely, honestly, and truly--to have the opportunity to meet you somewhere for a coffee (or a glass of wine or whatever) the next time I head back out west to visit my family and friends. Speaking from experience, even a phone conversation can do much to dispell sometimes painful misunderstandings. Although I'm ready to accept the possibility that you and I may never be the best of friends, I'm not ready to sweep away with the back of my hand the possibility that we may one day more clearly see where we're both coming from and that we may both be made the richer for it.

Why is this important to me? Just because this is the kind of person--and the kind of man--I am.

Love,
CJ

[Celia]

For me, it's more a matter of doing than of being. So, when someone asks me what kind of man I am, I'm inclined to regard it as a question about what sort of person I am. But I guess there are things that seem to me more normal (natural, comfortable, etc.) in girl mode than in boy mode and vice versa. And when I play the roll I usually try to stay in character, though I might not be %100. I'm louder and less graceful in boy mode, though perhaps more to the point on occasion. More likely to force, less to finesse. I guess I just tune myself a little more towards the neanderthal end of the dial and call it adequate.

-Celia

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

WOW!!!! We are having some really nice posts in here. CJ, that last post of yours is really a super post. I really like the way you are reaching out to Darlene in an attempt to really try to "get" her. Yet, you have maintained a respect and understanding for who Darlene is to the extent that you are willing to accept she may not be able to or desire to do so for reasons that are clear only to her.

Having said that, I am very glad to see Darlene share new things about her I have never heard before, which does shed some light into the person she really is. Also like CJ, I have seen Darlene put forth a considerable amount of energy helping others to understand themselves, and I include myself in that group. There were a small group of people who took it upon themselves to help me at a time in my life when I desperately needed it. Darlene was one of those people and I am proud to call her one of my friends. I love you sis.

Anyway, I was hoping this thread might help us get to some deeper understanding of each other and I feel it is doing just that. Reaching out for the substance of who each of us are, so we can perhaps understand what this is about all of us.

Good job ladies.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[KarenW]

People tell me all of the time 'you're a real man'. What in the world is that about? WHen they say this for some reason it stresses me out.

Probably this whole ,if only you knew how I was dressed a few hours ago.

I mean, I am a man. You can look at me and tell that. I walk, sound act like a man. But some of that is forced, alot more forced growing up than it is now. For the most part people have their own perception of who you are supposed to be.

In my case, 100% of the time, nothing they could come up with about who they think or perceive me to be could be further from the truth. And eventually it goes back to my biggest problem, trying to live up to and be what others think I should and want me to be. As opposed to living in my own personal truth.

The alternative is to truly be myself and act on that being, and then be responsible enough to accept the consequences of that being. That is risk being fired, killed, disowend, ostrasized or all of the abouve.

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

In my case, 100% of the time, nothing they could come up with about who they think or perceive me to be could be further from the truth. And eventually it goes back to my biggest problem, trying to live up to and be what others think I should and want me to be. As opposed to living in my own personal truth.

The alternative is to truly be myself and act on that being, and then be responsible enough to accept the consequences of that being. That is risk being fired, killed, disowend, ostrasized or all of the abouve.

Karen,

I clearly remember feeling just like what you described. I felt totally trapped into a life I hated(which may not be how you feel), but I did feel that no one really knew me. And felt uneasy when someone talked about what a "good man" I was. And I resented having to live up to the expectations of what they percieved me to be.

But in the end it was me who gave them those expectations.

Love always,
Elizabeth