Your Identity?

[Loretta Ann]

It looks like we all actually agree on something. How unusual.

Now that we have agreed that we just are and as Lorna so well put it labels are for bottles and cans, I wonder if actually the question was really something else. Was the question not who are we but what are we? Because I can use lots of labels there and I think that this too is a very valuable question. Also what are we not? For example am I not a murderer. I suppose it is possible I could become one. Far, far less likely is that I would become some sort of sociopath who doesn't care about it after. An extreme example to be sure.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I wasn't aware that I agreed with everyone here on this issue. Please forgive me if I left that impression. I do not think it is possible to escape the power that labels have over us.

A label plays a huge difference in what we think about ourselves. If we accept the label of just being me, just a person. That is likely what we will try to become. To use (Sally's term) Just part of the herd..... mentality.

One of the problems with that is we run into others with that same mentality, who when they get to know us better go wait a minute (time to back up here) I am not like that. Something is very wrong here. And the trouble begins.

Those with this belief attempts to force its way into the herd when in fact there is no such thing. We are not the same as everyone else and were never meant to be.

Each and every one of us is unique. Intended to obtain different gifts that benefit the rest of us. I really have a hard time accepting the notion that any one of us has been given such great knowledge or wisdom that we have the where with all to set the rest of world straight. As some of our broader community seems to think we are so privileged to be.

The sad part of all this is that some never get to the place where they receive the gifts that they were created to have.

And in my opinion the labels we accept for ourselves play a huge part in preventing us from ever obtaining them, and being able to contribute positively into the lives of others.

Peace.

[Becca Chambers]

As the single voter for the crossdresser choice, I figured it merritted explaining.
Obviously, I'm still me, because if I'm not than my whole life has been a lie and I chose not to accept that because of the ensuing depression and medications it would involve, but I digress.
Dressing up for me is all about the clothes. Just love feeling comfortable. I don't really have that big of a feminine side to express and don't feel like God has a sense of humor with making me male, and I'm always gonna be me (see above explanation). Ergo: I wear a skirt when I'm bored or it's too hot in my house or something.

[CJ]

Hi all,

I think I have an idea what you're trying to say, Loretta, and I agree. Your reply reminded me of something I read a couple of years ago. I went to look it up. Here's an extract:

As soon as a person asks himself the question, "How do I live my life in the best way?" then all other questions are answered.
Real living takes place not in the domain of outward change, but in the inner domain, where changes can hardly be observed, in our spiritual life.

--Leo Tolstoy, A Calendar of Wisdom (p.194)

I agree that this question (in your own words, "Where are you headed?") is--or should be--central to our existence and, while it may be central, I think there are many ways to answer it. Some people look to philosophy (the gnothi seauton--"know thyself"--of the ancient Greeks, for example), others to psychology and yet others to religion (this was Tolstoy's own chosen path, by the way).

However we choose to handle the question, you're right; we often forge our deepest identity around the answer that appeals to us most. To me, a sign that a person's chosen path is right (or wrong) for her is the positive (or negative) effect that choice will have on her in her daily life. The spiritual idiom (for example, "Ye shall know them by their fruits") certainly has a larger application--regardless of whether one is religious or not.

It's sort of strange (or maybe not) but, in my own case, the fact that I'm gender-variant is a mere trifle "in the big scheme of things." I can identify with the sun (Carl Sagan: "We are starstuff become aware of itself."); I can identify as a "Child of God" (where I see God as the Universe--as the "All-That-Is"--and that universe gave me birth); I can identify as a living organism that shares breath with everything else that lives (the Sanskrit word, atma--from which we get the word "atmosphere"--means both "breath" and "spirit"); I can identify with these "higher" levels but (and this is what sometimes troubles me, even though I've learned to live with the fundamental uncertainties that seem to permeate life in general) I find it very difficult to commit to more, shall we say, ordinary, levels or identification: Christian? Buddhist? Stoic? Humanist? Agnostic? Crossdresser? Feminist? Mental health counsellor? Even: man (as opposed to woman)? These are all what Aristotle called "accidental" or contingent features of who I am. And I am more than just the sum of my contingent features. We all are.

Am I completely outside the ballpark here, Loretta? Is this the kind of thing you had in mind when you brought up the notion of identity? I love these kinds of discussions.

Love,
CJ

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

For 22 years I worked in construction. For those of you who have never worked in construction, nicknames are very prevelant. Nicknames are usually derogatory in that they have some negative connotation. For instance, anyone with a Texas accent is always called "Tex". Electricians are called "sparky".

But many nicknames are more personal and are intended to label a person. I haver heard people who will actually respond to nicknames such as "Headache" or "Scurvy". They are the result of peer pressure, and are usually given by some other person, although some people do have self proclaimed nicknames in order to give a certain image such as "Cowboy".

In my 22 years in constuction no one ever successfully gave me a nickname, although many tried. The simple reason is this. I simply would not answer to any name other than my own name. I forced those who wished to communicate with me to use my real name or I would simply ignore them.

I think this is what Loretta was talking about when she refered to allowing others to put labels on us. It stuts our growth as people. It corals us into a space that makes us managable for those who do not wish to really know us. It screams out "I DON'T CARE WHO YOU REALLY ARE!!!!!!!!!!!"

Who we are to others is a function of our abilitity to communicate to others what we are about. Not just in words, but our body language, our deeds, our dreams.

Perhaps none of us know what or who (our identity) we really are. I have been as honest as I possibly can be on this forum to give others a glimpse into who I really am. I am the same person here as I am with my family or my friends.

You have seen my cry, you have seen me angry, you have seen me ashamed, you have seen me happy, you have seen me exstatic, you have seen me lonely and you have seen so much more. I beleive I have truely shared with all of you, who I really am. I have held nothing back.

But by sharing who I am, truely giving it all up, it has freed me. I have nothing to hide. No front, no guilt, no shame, no regrets. This has allowed me to move my life forward in such a way as to experience true happiness for the first time in my life.

What am I? What is my Identity? That is for others to decide. It is of very little concern to me. I am not what others say I am, just because that is how they view me and it is not important to me to try to coral myself into some corner so I have something to live up to. The future is uncertain, the past is unchangable, there is only right now, this very instant. Followed by other instant, and another and another.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Loretta Ann]

Hi CJ.

I have actually grown in this thread beyond what I had in mind when I started this thread entitled "Identity".

I knew that ones identity was important to ones (personal) growth, but that understanding has been expanded as a result of the participation in this thread.

When those like yourself respond with how you see it I am helped to put things into a better prospective. I am grateful for those of you who have done that in this thread.

To me it is not important what one identifies themselves with. What is important is what that identification does for them in terms of personal growth. Like how well does it work?

I think it is important for one to grab onto a (one) something that has a separate and distinct, independent, existence and objective or conceptual reality, that is first considered and then actually proven to be higher and more powerful and than ones self.

The important part is this needs to be proven to the individual internally, as opposed to others. There needs to be a personal benefit, with a realistic hope of further benefits. When one finds something that fits that criteria, grab a hold of it, as that will be a label that will give you something that will benefit you.

It should not be important to others what that is. As you said they will be known by their fruits. If one finds something that provides them with good fruit that satisfies, then it follows that there will be less rotten fruit coming out of that person.

If one does not have such a thing in their lives, they can end up being spread to thin to benefit as they were meant to do. Trying to be all those other things to every body else, such as; Engineer, working stiff, husband/wife, father/mother, alcoholic, (for those in AA) Administrator, moderator and on and on.

One of the things of a successful larger business, is the ability to download (if you will) responsibilities to other people. To share the load. Life does not provide everyone with that kind of luxury. So as a result we have a more difficult time being as successful as we might like to be.

[Loretta Ann]

What am I? What is my Identity? That is for others to decide. It is of very little concern to me. I am not what others say I am, just because that is how they view me and it is not important to me to try to coral myself into some corner so I have something to live up to. The future is uncertain, the past is unchangable, there is only right now, this very instant. Followed by other instant, and another and another.

Hi Elizabeth,

Some of this sounds strange to be coming from you. Who gave you the label you had accepted when you first came to this forum? Some where along the way that label had to change, in order for you to become who you are today.

The way you are today clearly indicates the way you thought of yourself had to change at some point.

Did you coral yourself into some corner so you would have something to live up to? Or did you find some here (as you have previously stated) that you looked up to? Which resulted in helping to enable you to become a positive contributor?

It is the same principle. One needs something to give them some light. The goal post has to move in order for continued growth to take place. One willing accepts that; or runs the risk of eventually finding themselves in another situation that forces themselves to take another leap.

It is impossible for one to reach a place where there is no more room to grow.

[Elizabeth]

Hi Loretta,

Hi Elizabeth,

Some of this sounds strange to be coming from you. Who gave you the label you had accepted when you first came to this forum? Some where along the way that label had to change, in order for you to become who you are today.

The way you are today clearly indicates the way you thought of yourself had to change at some point.

Did you coral yourself into some corner so you would have something to live up to? Or did you find some here (as you have previously stated) that you looked up to? Which resulted in helping to enable you to become a positive contributor?

I was corraled when I got here. My coming here was breaking out of the corral, so to speak. I needed a lot of help, if you recall. At times I still do. When one leads a great portion of thier lives with little or no self esteem trying to live up to an image of ones self that is incongruent with what one feels on the inside, it is easy to be corraled.

It was when I realized that what others thought about me was no concern of mine, that I felt I got out of the corral. You know, this is not the first time we have had this discussion about labels. The last time I vehemently stood my ground saying how I needed no labels, that I was just what I am.

It was argued back then that the medical community needed to label us for our own benefit. It was a circular argument that really went no where, from my point of view, but it did make me realize one thing. Others do need labels, for everything.

But again, thier need to label me is not my concern. I do not have to respond to the label. The label only sticks when one accepts it and responds to it. That is what I mean by being corraled. If anyone wants to label me, this or that, I can not stop them. It is however thier problem also when I do not respond to the label.

Is that what you are talking about?

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Loretta Ann]

[In the Black text Elizabeth wrote:]
I was corraled when I got here. My coming here was breaking out of the corral, Although I can understand how you see it that way I do not agree so to speak. I needed a lot of help, if you recall. At times I still do. When one leads a great portion of thier lives with little or no self esteem trying to live up to an image of ones self that is incongruent with what one feels on the inside, it is easy to be corraled.

You were held prisoner by the label you had accepted from those who wanted to corral you. Probably a better word would be use you. On the one hand you claim that as an electrician you did not respond to those who attempted to define you via nick names. But yet you allowed others to define who you were in a different area of your life

There is a certain amount of responsibility that falls on your shoulders for that reality. Like it or not (in reality) you have just exchanged labels. That in-spite of whether you realize it not.

One simple example of that is the progression from; from Rudy, to Karlton, to Elizabeth.

It was when I realized that what others thought about me was no concern of mine, While that is true for those who want to define you in an unhealthy way, it does not take away the fact that you/we all need some people (a support group) that holds you in high esteem.

One of the things that was said to me (by my qualified therapist) about two years ago

was that I had far succeeded him in certain areas of maturity.

Yet he exceeds me in other areas.

So to say that we are both just who we are not needing any labels simply falls short of any kind of an adequate definition as we are entirely two very different people, with very different gifts.

that I felt I got out of the corral. You know, this is not the first time we have had this discussion about labels. The last time I vehemently stood my ground saying how I needed no labels, that I was just what I am.

It was argued back then that the medical community needed to label us for our own benefit. It was a circular argument that really went no where, from my point of view, but it did make me realize one thing. Others do need labels, for everything.

That proves little. Some of us are not the same people we were at the time of that discussion, (Some of us have moved on) and as a result now have different material to contribute.

But again, thier need to label me is not my concern. I do not have to respond to the label. The label only sticks when one accepts it and responds to it. That is what I mean by being corraled. If anyone wants to label me, this or that, I can not stop them. It is however thier problem also when I do not respond to the label.

Is that what you are talking about? Not totally. I think it is unhealthy to continue to run from such people looking over our shoulders always on the defensive.

All labels are not harmful, and we need some offense in our lives, in order to move forward. It is part of being balanced.

To use your words healthy labels; help us run at the door while avoiding some of the bruises that we might other wise encounter.

[Virginia]

Loretta,
Loretta, I like it! Still my Sis????
As for labels, my wife's attorney has formally labeled me as an insane pervert because I am a crossdresser!!! That is what he called me in the legal document that "they" submitted to the court!
I feel that I am neither insane nor a pervert! I feel that none of my sisters here are insane nor are they perverts, yet one of the "unwashed" has so labled us all as that, so whether or not we like it, we have a label placed on us! What will my "defense" be if this "gift" is brought up in court, I will agree of course and I will humbly point out that being a crossdresser places me so far above him on the evotionary ladder that he could not even see up my skirt if he were to look.
I am who I am, a person, a person with a wonderful gift, a gift that I share as often as I can! Love, empathy, compassion far outweight, the bottom-feeders that chase ambulances for a living!
Love,
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

In the black text Virginia wrote:]Loretta,

Loretta, I like it! Thanks Still my Sis???? Just as the identification above my avatar implies honey.

But not if you expect me to be just me (meaning) to be one of them thar (what did you say it was) Oh ya one of those parverts yup that is what it was. If you want me to be just me? well I sure the heck ain't one of them thar things. No Sir ree Ma'am not me.

I would really need to re thunk this hole thang if that were the case.

[Elizabeth]

Loretta,

I reread your post and I have to admit, I have no idea what you are getting at. I feel as if for most of this thread you are talking in riddles. Apparently CJ understands what you are getting at, but I certainly do not. If you could just get to your point, in some clear and concise way, it would be easier.

I get the feeling you are saying there is one formula for living life, you have found it, and there is no other way. I am starting to feel like you see what I wrote as an argument that needs to be deconstucted in such a way to invalidate it, then tell me how I can change it to be in line with what you think is correct.

I really do not care what others label me. I don't care about labels at all. I know people label me, but I do not find it particularly helpful and I have no intention to try to find what a "healthy label" is, because I do not beleive they are necessary or particularly useful to me.

Unless you can show my why a label would help move my life forward, as a person who beleives in existentialism, the only label that is applicable is "human".

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Loretta Ann]

Loretta,

I reread your post and I have to admit, I have no idea what you are getting at. I feel as if for most of this thread you are talking in riddles. Apparently CJ understands what you are getting at, but I certainly do not. If you could just get to your point, in some clear and concise way, it would be easier.

I get the feeling you are saying there is one formula for living life, you have found it, and there is no other way. I am starting to feel like you see what I wrote as an argument that needs to be deconstucted in such a way to invalidate it, then tell me how I can change it to be in line with what you think is correct.

I really do not care what others label me. I don't care about labels at all. I know people label me, but I do not find it particularly helpful and I have no intention to try to find what a "healthy label" is, because I do not beleive they are necessary or particularly useful to me.

Unless you can show my why a label would help move my life forward, as a person who beleives in existentialism, the only label that is applicable is "human".

Elizabeth,

During my last response to you the thought came to me that I really don't have the energy for this kind of thing. And you know what? I really don't. We have been down this road before. You should know me better than that by now.

I don't stick around for much of what one attempts to project in the way of a defense mechanism. I do not accept the label you have attempted to lay on me here. That only leads to arguments that solve very little.

If you are unable to understand what I am getting at you are free to disregard what I have written, just as anyone else is.

I have shared here some more of myself. It is not meant to be anything more than that. It is what has worked for me. Perhaps you could share what works for you beyond being honest and open about yourself, which you do not seem to appreciate from me. As seems obvious by your last post here.

What I have shared here is just a part of the larger picture. It is up to you to put it together any way you like. I am not here to show you anything. That is another (projected) label which I do not accept.

Nuff said.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Elizabeth,

Although I won't presume to speak for Loretta, I think what she's getting at is this: the one label we should not shy away from applying to ourselves is the one that best represents an organizing principle around which our identity is structured and that helps us move forward as individuals. In Loretta's case (if I understand her correctly), it's her link with God, as a Christian person. In my case, it's a love of wisdom (literally, philosophy) as both therapy and as a coping mechanism for dealing with an ever-uncertain and ever-changing world. In your case (going by how you described yourself above), it's as a humanist with an existential bent. And so on and so forth. These ways of "being in the world" structure our identity and they lead to our applying labels to ourselves that we aren't (or shouldn't be) afraid of.

Moreover, as Loretta pointed out, even those fundamental labels (that represent what for any one of us are called "live options" in many of the Religious Studies courses I took in school), are not the whole of who we are. They're at the center of our existence (often, in an unconscious way) but they don't necessarily determine everything we are and everything we do (cf. Paul's "That which I would not do, I do, and that which I would do, I do not"); we are, after all--and as Loretta often (and rightly, I think) points out, perfectible ("perfectible" meaning, imperfect but still capable of bettering ourselves).

Identity... what a concept!

Love,
CJ

[Beauty]

The clean up I have to do when people speak for someone out of kindness can be pretty messy. Please let others speak for themselves. It's best not to get in the middle.

This may be different and I'm hoping so, but if you need me I'll be behind the couch.

Gracie

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

Loretta,

I am not trying to pigeon hole you, or label you as anything. You are what you are. I accept you and love you as you are. I am trying to gain understanding and I am having a difficult time. I don't understand (apparently your intention) of just what exactly you are trying to say. I am not certain why it is important to you to share these llttle glimpses, but never just come out and say what you want us(me) to know.

I want to "get it", I really do, but it is impossible if when, in trying to understand, I ask you to clarify or to go further and you cop out. I know you are only going to say what you want to say and I am sure you have your reasons(which to me are entirely unclear).

I perhaps made the mistake of thinking your posts here were to enlighted others to "your truth". But if every time I ask for more information you use your standard line about only adding what you want to the discussion, than all the effort is lost, as least on me, because I simply do not get what you are trying to say.

I am not asking for you to go beyond what you wish to include in this discussion, I am asking you to word it in such a way that I can comprhend it. I pointed out already that apparently others are able to get your point, but for some reason I am not. It seems to me our thinking on this issue is the same, but you answer all of my posts telling me it is not.

I do not seek confrontation, you should know that is not my style. I only seek understanding. If I offended you in any way, it was not my intention and I apologize. I am only asking you to word this or give me some analogy that might show me how to understand what you are saying.

CJ,

In my previous post I discussed why I beleive I do not need a label. I did however concede that others may need a label for me. It is my beleif, and I may be wrong in saying this, but that when we label ourselves we limit ourselves and that may be what Loretta is trying to say, but I am not sure.

I have put serious obsticals in my path before by labeling myself. I beleive this can be incredibly harmful. I beleive I can be everything I am, plus everything I might ever be, if I do not label myself. That is what I referred to as being "corraled".



This conversation is has been very insightful so far, and many have added thier views. I hope no one is detracted from this really inspiring conversation.

Love always,
Elizabeth