Hello all, My response is in the red text.
Loretta,
I am not trying to pigeon hole you, or label you as anything. You are what you are. I accept you and love you as you are. I am trying to gain understanding and I am having a difficult time. I don't understand (apparently your intention) of just what exactly you are trying to say. I am not certain why it is important to you to share these llttle glimpses, but never just come out and say what you want us(me) to know.
OK Elizabeth honey, I understand where you are at, thank you for explaining that. I too have been where you are at. And yes it is a terribly frustrating place to be. But it is a good place to be. It shows your eagerness to learn. The problem is that I can not come out and say what it is that I want you to know. I do not know how to say it any plainer than I have. And I am glad that I can not do that. Because if I were able to do that I would then be attempting to mold you into something that you may not have intended to be.
I want to "get it", I really do, but it is impossible if when, in trying to understand, I ask you to clarify or to go further and you cop out. I know you are only going to say what you want to say and I am sure you have your reasons(which to me are entirely unclear).
I found myself in the exact same situation with my therapist. There were times that I wished I could have taken a hold of him by the neck and squeezed until he told me. But it doesn't work that way, As I told you it is only apart of the larger picture.
I had to reach a certain place in order to understand why he said some of what he did to me. Today there is nothing remaining that he said that I have not come to understand why he said it.
I perhaps made the mistake of thinking your posts here were to enlighted others to "your truth". But if every time I ask for more information you use your standard line about only adding what you want to the discussion, than all the effort is lost, as least on me, because I simply do not get what you are trying to say.
I will try one more time: Labels tell others about us such as the term (humanist with an existential bent) is designed to tell us something about who you are. I ask you; (to you) is that an unhealthy label? It is a label isn't it? But probably far more important is what that label tells you about yourself? And you are the only one qualified to make that decision.
I am not asking for you to go beyond what you wish to include in this discussion, I am asking you to word it in such a way that I can comprhend it. I pointed out already that apparently others are able to get your point, but for some reason I am not. It seems to me our thinking on this issue is the same, but you answer all of my posts telling me it is not.
One of the things that helped me was to read things written by different authors who said things a different way than my therapist said them. Some times it was just one or two words different yet I was able to grasp what he meant, or at least why he said what he did.
I do not seek confrontation, you should know that is not my style. I only seek understanding. If I offended you in any way, it was not my intention and I apologize. I am only asking you to word this or give me some analogy that might show me how to understand what you are saying.
CJ can be a resource for you in this area in the way I have described above. we both come at this from slightly different angles. Her way includes more of a text book understanding. And I am grateful when the two of us are at least close to being on the same page as we appear to be here. I learn from her when this happens. And I appreciate her contribution in this thread.
CJ,
In my previous post I discussed why I beleive I do not need a label. I did however concede that others may need a label for me. It is my beleif, and I may be wrong in saying this, but that when we label ourselves we limit ourselves and that may be what Loretta is trying to say, but I am not sure.
While I am not speaking for CJ here, which she is free to do for herself. Loretta is trying to say that negative labels limit ourselves, but if one accepts a label that is big enough that continuously Stretches/causes one to be perfectible ("perfectible" meaning, imperfect but still capable of bettering ourselves). Then there is no room for negative limitations or serious obstacles. And Loretta says that is healthy. I really can not put it any plainer than that.
I have put serious obsticals in my path before by labeling myself. I beleive this can be incredibly harmful. I beleive I can be everything I am, plus everything I might ever be, if I do not label myself. That is what I referred to as being "corraled".
This conversation is has been very insightful so far, and many have added thier views. I hope no one is detracted from this really inspiring conversation.
The eagerness you have demonstrated to learn more may be an indicator that you have unknowingly accepted such a label and/or identity. (If that is the situation I have not seen it in your text.) Or it might be the result of distancing yourself from your past.(which is good) But there came a time (for me) as I spent more time in my new life where I began forgetting most of what my past was like. And I needed something else to propel me on-word.
Your Identity?
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Loretta Ann
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Elizabeth
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Loretta,
I found your last post to be just what I was looking for. I think I get it now. You are saying that one must be "something" or one is unable to identify with anyone or anything, but that it must be a positive label or one might inadvertently accept a negative label.
I am an existentialist or perhaps a humanist. It is a very broad label that I consider very positive, but more importantly it is a label that every person on the planet can accept in a positive way. It is virtually impossible to say we are all human beings adn as such no one is better than anyone else by mere virtue of who's crotch they were yanked out of, and it not be a postive thing.
That is my broad positive label that allows me to move forward in a life and lifestyle where others may think that indeed they are better than me, by mere virtue of what family, wealth, or status they were born into. It gives me positive energy to push my life forward in a direction that I beleive is in my best interest.
I really appreciate your patience and please let me know if I have it now. I think we have been on the same page for quite some time now, but I was just not understanding where you were coming from.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I found your last post to be just what I was looking for. I think I get it now. You are saying that one must be "something" or one is unable to identify with anyone or anything, but that it must be a positive label or one might inadvertently accept a negative label.
I am an existentialist or perhaps a humanist. It is a very broad label that I consider very positive, but more importantly it is a label that every person on the planet can accept in a positive way. It is virtually impossible to say we are all human beings adn as such no one is better than anyone else by mere virtue of who's crotch they were yanked out of, and it not be a postive thing.
That is my broad positive label that allows me to move forward in a life and lifestyle where others may think that indeed they are better than me, by mere virtue of what family, wealth, or status they were born into. It gives me positive energy to push my life forward in a direction that I beleive is in my best interest.
I really appreciate your patience and please let me know if I have it now. I think we have been on the same page for quite some time now, but I was just not understanding where you were coming from.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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Loretta Ann
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CJ
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Hi all,
This is turning out to be a pretty cool thread.
Heh. I'm reminded of a criticism my father threw my way oh so many years ago. He said something like, "The problem with you is that you're not anything, you won't 'commit' to anything: you're not religious but you're not an atheist; you're not politically or socially liberal but neither are you conservative; you're not a careerist but you advance rapidly in every job you've had; you have many talents--artistic or otherwise--but you seem unwilling or unable to exploit those talents; you love people but you're the opposite of gregarious; frankly, people just don't know how to handle you."
I remember being hurt by his saying this at the time. I had the feeling that he was unable to see me, to truly see me as I am, except through this or that label. Today, I realize that that was, indeed, the case (we've talked about this a lot, he and I, over the years) but we've come to sort of a stalemate, in a way. He contends that every single person needs to focus or organize his or her life around a central guiding principle if that person ever hopes to grow--emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually. While I agree with this, in principle, the problem I have is a lot like what Elizabeth is talking about: I feel no need to define myself in any given way merely to satisfy anyone else's need to label other people... even if they only do so in order to better understand those other people. I will always try to understand other human beings because, often (in fact, very often), such understanding sheds a hell of a lot of light on my own foibles and flaws (and, yes, on my beauties and strengths as well). However, I will always keep in mind and realize that my understanding of other people is, like the rest of me, only imperfectly realized. After all, I'm not in their skin nor in their mind. Any knowledge I have of another person is always partial or veiled. This is true even when that person is willing or able or eager even to apply a label to themselves so that they may help others understand who they are.
This past summer, my father told me that I was abnormal, that I had a mental illness. Coming from a psychologist (which he is), this kind of statement can carry a lot of weight. And a lot of hurt. Which it did. Then it slowly dawned on me (with the help of those friends with whom I discussed this--thanks, Beauty! ) that, first, I need not accept this label--it's a sign of my father's needs, not mine--and, second, that I, myself, was guilty of applying labels to my father ("psychologist," "father") that went against any possibility of he and I ever truly understanding one another, person to person, human being to human being. I won't say that our relationship wasn't damaged by this unfortunate episode. It was. But, as usual, I'm doing my best to work this out. In a way, my father's as "unclassifiable" as I am (or, truly, as anyone else is or ever was).
It's strange how identity, like death itself, is a very private matter; however we put it into words, nobody has access to who we are inside. Often, even we, ourselves, don't have access to our fundamental identity, to what I called in another thread our "true self." Obviously, even just going by what was said in this very thread, it's not for lack of trying. And may those attempts never cease as we continue to look for ourselves on the road to becoming who we are.
Love,
CJ
(crossdresser, son, intellectual, hard worker, Buddhist, emotional pygmy, brother, nerd, friend, bookworm, stoic, skeptic, writer, CJ: that's all me... but not any one of those terms is just me, you know?)
This is turning out to be a pretty cool thread.
Heh. I'm reminded of a criticism my father threw my way oh so many years ago. He said something like, "The problem with you is that you're not anything, you won't 'commit' to anything: you're not religious but you're not an atheist; you're not politically or socially liberal but neither are you conservative; you're not a careerist but you advance rapidly in every job you've had; you have many talents--artistic or otherwise--but you seem unwilling or unable to exploit those talents; you love people but you're the opposite of gregarious; frankly, people just don't know how to handle you."I remember being hurt by his saying this at the time. I had the feeling that he was unable to see me, to truly see me as I am, except through this or that label. Today, I realize that that was, indeed, the case (we've talked about this a lot, he and I, over the years) but we've come to sort of a stalemate, in a way. He contends that every single person needs to focus or organize his or her life around a central guiding principle if that person ever hopes to grow--emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually. While I agree with this, in principle, the problem I have is a lot like what Elizabeth is talking about: I feel no need to define myself in any given way merely to satisfy anyone else's need to label other people... even if they only do so in order to better understand those other people. I will always try to understand other human beings because, often (in fact, very often), such understanding sheds a hell of a lot of light on my own foibles and flaws (and, yes, on my beauties and strengths as well). However, I will always keep in mind and realize that my understanding of other people is, like the rest of me, only imperfectly realized. After all, I'm not in their skin nor in their mind. Any knowledge I have of another person is always partial or veiled. This is true even when that person is willing or able or eager even to apply a label to themselves so that they may help others understand who they are.
This past summer, my father told me that I was abnormal, that I had a mental illness. Coming from a psychologist (which he is), this kind of statement can carry a lot of weight. And a lot of hurt. Which it did. Then it slowly dawned on me (with the help of those friends with whom I discussed this--thanks, Beauty!
) that, first, I need not accept this label--it's a sign of my father's needs, not mine--and, second, that I, myself, was guilty of applying labels to my father ("psychologist," "father") that went against any possibility of he and I ever truly understanding one another, person to person, human being to human being. I won't say that our relationship wasn't damaged by this unfortunate episode. It was. But, as usual, I'm doing my best to work this out. In a way, my father's as "unclassifiable" as I am (or, truly, as anyone else is or ever was).It's strange how identity, like death itself, is a very private matter; however we put it into words, nobody has access to who we are inside. Often, even we, ourselves, don't have access to our fundamental identity, to what I called in another thread our "true self." Obviously, even just going by what was said in this very thread, it's not for lack of trying. And may those attempts never cease as we continue to look for ourselves on the road to becoming who we are.
Love,
CJ
(crossdresser, son, intellectual, hard worker, Buddhist, emotional pygmy, brother, nerd, friend, bookworm, stoic, skeptic, writer, CJ: that's all me... but not any one of those terms is just me, you know?)
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Kathy
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Hmmmm... OK, I have to admit that, for a while there, I could not make any sense at all of what was being said here. Thank you Loretta and CJ for clarifying.And, with all that has been said, I stand by my original response. I still identify myself as just that; my self. I can say that because, as CJ so elequently pointed out, if I look at all of the possible labels that could be used to describe me, no one single label does the job. They are all part of me.
I don't believe saying that just lumps me into some "herd". All of the things that I am are what makes me a single, unique individual. Yes, I share many aspects with Loretta as well as CJ and Elizabeth and DonnaT and many others. But I am also different from any of them. If I look at all of the labels, there is no one label that is unique to me. But, when taken in combination and consider the degree to which any given label applies to me, then I come out as a unique combination of labels or, more simply, I am me.
You can argue that there must be one significant aspect that provides the focus for all of the others. I would be hard pressed to argue against that. But, is it the same today as it was yesterday? Will it be the same tomorrow as it is today?
Every day brings me a new experience and how I respond to that experience determines how much or how little I may grow as a person and in what direction. Since I have learned to trust my instincts and follow my heart, I put very little effort into planning for future growth. I just don't think in terms of labels. I do the best I can with what I'm faced with today. What I do today prepares me for tomorrow.
Who I am today is not who I was yesterday. Who will I be tomorrow...?
Love,
Kathy
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
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Loretta Ann
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Hi CJ.
That is an interesting post. I agree with Beauty that it's a sign of your father's needs. Which I am not so sure is all that healthy, as that IMO goes against allowing another to be who they are.
You are right that we will never be able to understand ourselves or another completely. That is impossible to achieve in an imperfect world. That is why there are some things I don't want or need to understand about others.
Anyone wanting to understand me perfectly is attempting to get to close. IMO that is in fact unhealthy, being that it speaks of an insecurity in this case on your fathers part. I will be quick to put up a wall that can not be penetrated by those kind of people.
As for his statement that people just don't know how to handle you, that is not your problem. You are an adult no longer a child to be handled.
I do not need a label so that others will know me. they need that. I need a large enough label (Or as I prefer to call it... Identity) so that my personal growth will not be stunted due to it.
That is the way I see it.
That is an interesting post. I agree with Beauty that it's a sign of your father's needs. Which I am not so sure is all that healthy, as that IMO goes against allowing another to be who they are.
You are right that we will never be able to understand ourselves or another completely. That is impossible to achieve in an imperfect world. That is why there are some things I don't want or need to understand about others.
Anyone wanting to understand me perfectly is attempting to get to close. IMO that is in fact unhealthy, being that it speaks of an insecurity in this case on your fathers part. I will be quick to put up a wall that can not be penetrated by those kind of people.
As for his statement that people just don't know how to handle you, that is not your problem. You are an adult no longer a child to be handled.
I do not need a label so that others will know me. they need that. I need a large enough label (Or as I prefer to call it... Identity) so that my personal growth will not be stunted due to it.
That is the way I see it.
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Loretta Ann
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Hey Kathy,Kathy wrote:
And, with all that has been said, I stand by my original response. I still identify myself as just that; my self. I can say that because, as CJ so elequently pointed out, if I look at all of the possible labels that could be used to describe me, no one single label does the job. They are all part of me.
I don't believe saying that just lumps me into some "herd". All of the things that I am are what makes me a single, unique individual. Yes, I share many aspects with Loretta as well as CJ and Elizabeth and DonnaT and many others. But I am also different from any of them. If I look at all of the labels, there is no one label that is unique to me. But, when taken in combination and consider the degree to which any given label applies to me, then I come out as a unique combination of labels or, more simply, I am me.
You can argue that there must be one significant aspect that provides the focus for all of the others. I would be hard pressed to argue against that. But, is it the same today as it was yesterday? Will it be the same tomorrow as it is today?
Every day brings me a new experience and how I respond to that experience determines how much or how little I may grow as a person and in what direction. Since I have learned to trust my instincts and follow my heart, I put very little effort into planning for future growth. I just don't think in terms of labels. I do the best I can with what I'm faced with today. What I do today prepares me for tomorrow.
Who I am today is not who I was yesterday. Who will I be tomorrow...?
Your signature says The only thing that can possibly keep you from going after your dream is the person standing in your shoes, wearing your clothes, and thinking your negative thoughts. - Les Brown
Does that include negative labels? I think it does, and is it not those negative thoughts that will make you apart of the herd? And will not those negative labels affect the way one responds to those every day experiences?
Just curious.
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Kathy
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I was watching a herd of cattle out in a field the other day. At first glance, they all looked the same, just part of the herd. But, as I watched, I began to see the unique characteristics of each individual. The different sizes, the shapes of the color patches on their bodies. As a group, they are all a part of a herd; they are all cattle. Individually, they are all unique, no matter how insignificant that one unique characteristic may be.
As a group, we are all just a part of the herd; we are humans. Individually, we are all unique. And that includes all of our characteristics, including the negative ones.
Please keep in mind that what you may percieve as negative for yourself may well be positive for someone else.
Is the cup half full or is it half empty? Which of those options is positive? Which is negative? I guess it all depends on what you plan to do with the cup...?
Love,
Kathy
As a group, we are all just a part of the herd; we are humans. Individually, we are all unique. And that includes all of our characteristics, including the negative ones.
Please keep in mind that what you may percieve as negative for yourself may well be positive for someone else.
Is the cup half full or is it half empty? Which of those options is positive? Which is negative? I guess it all depends on what you plan to do with the cup...?
Love,
Kathy
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
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Kathy
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Oh, I forgot one part of Loretta's last post...
If I changed my signature line to:
"Someday my ship will come in. With my luck, I'll be at the airport."
Where would this lead the discussion?
Love,
Kathy
If I changed my signature line to:
"Someday my ship will come in. With my luck, I'll be at the airport."
Where would this lead the discussion?
Love,
Kathy
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
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CJ
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Loretta Ann
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Well Kathy,As a group, we are all just a part of the herd; we are humans. Individually, we are all unique. And that includes all of our characteristics, including the negative ones.
First let me tell you that I have enjoyed many of your posts. Then let me respectfully ask you to please speak for your self. The reference to the herd implies more than you are taking into account here.
In this thread I first used the term "Herd....Mentality" which was originally coined by Sally. Which I (have previously) related to as the masses who are the asses.
Nope...sorry but please, I want no part of that.
Last edited by Loretta Ann on Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Elizabeth
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Kathy
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Point taken!Loretta wrote:Well Kathy,As a group, we are all just a part of the herd; we are humans. Individually, we are all unique. And that includes all of our characteristics, including the negative ones.
First let me tell you that I have enjoyed many of your posts. Then let me respectfully ask you to please speak for your self. The reference to the herd implies more than you are taking into account here.
In this thread I first used the term "Herd....Mentality" which was originally coined by Sally. Which I (have previously) related to as the masses who are the asses.
Nope...sorry but please, I want no part of that.
Now, if one has an experience which leads to negative thoughts but later learns from the experience which then has a positive impact on his/her life, does that, then, turn the original experience into a positive?
That a person should have negative thoughts from time to time doesn't necessarily reduce that person to the level of the "herd", as you have defined it. But, I suppose that, if a person was either unable or unwilling to turn those negatives into positives, then that person would be reduced to that level.
Love,
Kathy
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown
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Loretta Ann
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[My response is in the red text]
Now, if one has an experience which leads to negative thoughts but later learns from the experience which then has a positive impact on his/her life, does that, then, turn the original experience into a positive?
I have had such an experience, that I walked out of with nothing more than the clothes on my back. Planning revenge and suicide. No that was and still is not a positive experience.
Having said that: Now ...today I would not ask that it be rectified. What has been positive is what has occurred (taken place) since then, which included my leaving the herd behind.
That a person should have negative thoughts from time to time doesn't necessarily reduce that person to the level of the "herd",
This thread is about ones identity. The members of the herd have an identity which is a negative label if you will, that controls/causes the negative thoughts to occur much more frequently than from time to time. In fact it becomes a way of thinking for them. as you have defined it. But, I suppose that, if a person was either unable or unwilling to turn those negatives into positives, then that person would be reduced to that level.
Judging from the level of maturity that I have seen in your posts. You are not one of those who I had envisioned as being part of the herd.
Now, if one has an experience which leads to negative thoughts but later learns from the experience which then has a positive impact on his/her life, does that, then, turn the original experience into a positive?
I have had such an experience, that I walked out of with nothing more than the clothes on my back. Planning revenge and suicide. No that was and still is not a positive experience.
Having said that: Now ...today I would not ask that it be rectified. What has been positive is what has occurred (taken place) since then, which included my leaving the herd behind.
That a person should have negative thoughts from time to time doesn't necessarily reduce that person to the level of the "herd",
This thread is about ones identity. The members of the herd have an identity which is a negative label if you will, that controls/causes the negative thoughts to occur much more frequently than from time to time. In fact it becomes a way of thinking for them. as you have defined it. But, I suppose that, if a person was either unable or unwilling to turn those negatives into positives, then that person would be reduced to that level.
Judging from the level of maturity that I have seen in your posts. You are not one of those who I had envisioned as being part of the herd.
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Kathy
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OK, going out on a limb here...
Your thoughts? Anyone?
Love,
Kathy
So, how did they get this identity? Chances are it was assigned to them by someone else. Perhaps it is the need to latch on to some "identity" in the first place that is holding them back?In part Loretta wrote:The members of the herd have an identity which is a negative label if you will, that controls/causes the negative thoughts to occur much more frequently than from time to time.
Your thoughts? Anyone?
Love,
Kathy
Whatever you accomplish in life is a manifestation not so much of what you do, as of what you believe deeply within yourself that you deserve. - Les Brown