Femaleness or femininity?

[Cathy L. Anderson]

Hi All,

Here is a question that has long puzzled me: Do CDs (or TGs) wish to be female, or do they wish to be feminine? And is there a difference?

Here's what I mean.

A genetic female is a blend of masculine and feminine traits. Yes, a GG might wear dresses, lingerie and makeup sometimes. But other times they wear slacks, get dirty (e.g., working in the garden), don't shave their legs, and are in various other ways 'unfeminine'--it's part of the total person.

Further, as part of being a woman, they must deal with such unglamorous things as menstruation, being treated as second-class by a large segment of the male population, etc.

A CD or TG seldom expresses much interest in these unglamorous aspects of being a woman. Does this not suggest the aim of the CD/TG, then, is not to be an actual woman, since 90% of being a woman involves these other, unglamourous things, but rather to display an exaggerated, one might even say, caricatured image of femininity?

Cathy

[Jan W]

Dear Cathy,

Great great great point! Well done and well asked.

I have friends who are into dressing, I know people who are big into femme gear but would no sooner lift a finger to do a subservient thing like wash the dishes, perform housework or actually help with the supper at a support meeting even if their lives depended on it. They do not think that way and it tells me alot.

I have GG friends who not only perform these duties but actually enjoy doing so.

I am not so stupid to think that these stereotypes are the norm or the way things must be but if a TG'd person resists helping with the dishes while the same people (often SO's after a meeting) clean up what is going on here?

Love the pretty dresses hate the hard work!

To each their own.

Jan

[Georgia(SO)]

Bingo! For many SOs, this is the part that is hard to swallow. CD's play with all the fun stuff of being female, but get to skip the regular, day-to-day aspects of being a woman. It's like ya'll get to have your cake and eat it too...you can dress up in all my finery, but you also get the perks of being male in modern society...

-georgia(so)

[Beauty]

Hi Cathy,

TG'd these days incorporates (CD, TV, TS, and other gender variants).

From the CD gals I know they seek to be feminine and do not want to be females.

Regardless, great point Cathy. TS women also go through the same thing women go through with being discriminated against and being treated like secondary citizens. They can't undo their womanhood. They don't have to go through menstruation, but the care for those who have SRS involves lots of after care.

Also when I dress I don't really do it for any other reason other than not being naked.

TS women and GG women tend to dislike some of those who CD because they interpret the actions of CD'rs as being a mockery of who they are. Because I started as someone who thought I was a CD'r I don't feel that way.

Gracie

[DonnaT]

Here is a question that has long puzzled me: Do CDs (or TGs) wish to be female, or do they wish to be feminine? And is there a difference?

I have no wish to be female nor do I have a wish to be feminine. Maybe some CDs wish for one or the other and maybe even both, but I imagine many of us do not desire either one. We are guys that have this need to wear women's clothes.

My aim is to satisfy that urging any way I can. Sometimes it may result in a fantasy image, but most times it just results in an image of a guy in a dress.

A CD or TG seldom expresses much interest in [the] unglamorous aspects of being a woman. Does this not suggest the aim of the CD/TG, then, is not to be an actual woman, since 90% of being a woman involves these other, unglamourous things, but rather to display an exaggerated, one might even say, caricatured image of femininity?

I don't understand what you mean by "image of femininity", exaggerated, caricatured or otherwise. Sounds like an image of one might have of a 'proper' Southern Belle, Like Scarlett O'Hara when she was entertaining gentlemen callers.

If so, I can guarantee one thing, I'm far from that and I imagine most CDs are also.

[Carol Ann]

Hi Donna T,
I agree with you on the statement I dress because I want too.
Me I dress almost everyday because I want to, I couldn't give you and outright anwser as to why, I just do. Sometimes I believe it's because I really didn't like being a boy in high school always wanted to look pretty like a girl.

[Anita]

Great post, Cathy!

Being practical, I like it that I can dress as a woman, AND go to the hardware store, shop for groceries, attend the benefit, and so on. What I don't like is that whenever I start to think about more of the day-to-day aspects of living as a woman, I run into obstacles. To be practical in my daily life as a floor installer, I have to dress in work pants and a t-shirt. So do the women who do the trade.

So practicality runs afoul of reality. If I don't dress with enough female cues and clothing, I'm just confusing people. All the fulltime TS women I know work office jobs, where they can dress distinctively female if they want.

I guess what I'm saying is that, yes, I don't mind taking on the unglamorous parts of being a woman, but I can't dress in a way that allows me much room to DO them as a woman. If I'm gonna clean the house, work on the car, or help someone move, then I'm going to be thinking and looking like a man. My TS side does not see me as a woman unless there's a certain amount of outside reality that fits the role, and clothing is the most obvious part of that.

Got to go!

[Absaroka]

An absolutely great topic. I don't really have much to say about it but I'm glad you posted it

Andrea

[Virginia]

Yes, I remember seeing a list comparing males and females: One said for the male the entire world is his bathroom and yet another for men it is "one mood - all the time!" and with cudos to Jeff Foxworthy, men are very simplistic creatures, only two things" want a cold beer and to see something naked!"
I hope I have moved beyond most of those , but the mood swings, the periods, no I would not relish those as being part of Virginia. What she does for me is opening the door to better understanding what others want and need. Love, empathy, understanding, some recognition that they actually exist. someone to actually listen to them. These appear to be the feminine qualities that Virginia brings out in me and I love it. If I were female I would probably be dealing with the "hot flashes" and who knows what else now. but I don't and the wig hides the gray hair and a bit of makeup can hide the age spots and a lot of sit ups can help keep the "pot belly" at bay for a while longer.
No I don't think I would want to deal with the mood swings, the manner of thought processing that goes on or the constant mental strain of having to deal with the effects of gravity and appearance all the time. Fair or not, I know in a worse case scenerio I can sit down on the couch spread my legs open on the coffee table, in my (well I gotta admit - panties) grab a cold beer and yell at the football game on TV!
Remember the thread "You might be a crossdresser if..." If you have to put on make-up to watch Monday Night Football!"
Movin on with my "Magical Mystery Tour!"
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Here is a question that has long puzzled me: Do CDs (or TGs) wish to be female, or do they wish to be feminine? And is there a difference?

Very good post Cathy. I think it is another move towards freedom from denial.

And this goes to confirm another belief of mine. Women are born predominately feminine. 100% femininity is something that comes with the package and is not separable.

That is the one territory that is exclusive to a women, and it is impossible for men to completely achieve that.

[Sally]

Just some thoughts in passing on some things said, even if I do get off the beaten track a tad, but that's me all over. lol...

Naomi Wolf, ( Graduate of Yale in 1984, editor of George Mag, and regular contributor to Wall St Journal, New York Times, Washington Post etc)) in her book, "Promiscuities:- The secret struggle for womanhood." says in one particular passage:-

"When, over the course of the years did we 'become women'? Was it when we first put on make-up? With our first kiss? When we discovered our sexual identity? When we first had intercourse? When we had earned our own money for the first time? When we graduated from high school? When we first became pregnant, those of us who did? No. None of those events turned us into women. I think we became women, in our culture, when we made a decision that, even if we didn't know what womanhood meant or whether we had arrived there for sure, all the markers imposed on us were flawed, and that we were somehow going to find a way, through whatever struggle it might take, to determine the meaning of 'becoming a woman' for ourselves.
And all of us, to a greater or lesser extent, did indeed find our various ways through, not all the way to where we wanted to be; but closer."


We may never reach our destination, but maybe we can get closer to it than we think. Reading this aligns with my own thinking that who we are, either as men or women, depends on our individual sense of self identity and what we do about it. I agree with her also that women are not born women, and men are not born men, we're all born just babies. As children we may not have much control over what is put into our heads but as we grow to independency we then become responsible for who and what our senses tell us our self identity needs to be. Some things we have to do in life may not sit comfortable with us at all times, but, just as the things we like to do, we do well, the things we may prefer not doing have to be done very well too .e.g washing those damn dishes again lol......

Do I wish to be a female? yes I certainly do, and this has been a life long wish and struggle for me, which in the past made my life quite unbearable at times, as I've said before in other threads.

How do I cope these days? The short answer is, as well as I can from day to day. The longer answer would take up too much time and space here, but wishing to be a female doesn't mean that I spend all my time 'made up', to coin a phrase, I am quite comfortable as I can be with myself nowadays though. To me, the inside is more important to me than the outside. It's not the wrapper which is most important to the package, it's what's contained inside, or I may put it as the 'sense of identity' to matters to me more than anything physical these days.

Would I change my life? yes, I would in a flash if I could. Unfortunately we don't have any say in how nature works and as I've said before, nature loves variety, even if at times we don't.

I would take this one step further and at the risk of being howled down I believe that in all honesty, the reason why I myself and a percentage of other people find such enjoyment and happiness in seeking to pass as, or be a female is that the unhappiness of being somewhere between male and female can be quite distressing at times, not just because of our individual personal struggles, but all the surrounding problems it can bring with family, friends, employment etc. The escape into the 'feminine' can be a means of blocking out the trials and tribulations the responsibilities of the 'male' can weigh people down with.

I believe in all honesty that if I'd been born devoid of any wish to crossdress or emulate or be a female and was able to live my life wholly both physically and emotionally as a male, then my life would have been far, far happier than it has previously been. I'm not saying I'm unhappy now, ( but in the past, yes, very ) I believe, as Naomi Wolf says in her book, I've found the way through whatever struggle it might have taken, to determine the meaning of 'becoming a woman' which personally suits me and which sits as comfortable as is humanly possible with myself and those around me who love me, and I might add, that clothing and accompanying accessories are not part of it. But it was all those years gone by, which life at times became quite unbearable for myself and others, which we could well have done without, which lead me to reflect on and say, we could well have done without it and been much happier over a longer period of our lives, if I'd been born without, as some put it, "this gift". I realise the only thing we get looking back is a stiff neck, but sometimes what's gone in the past may help someone looking to their future.

If I may, I might just add that what I say is applicable to myself only and in no way do I ever try to impose my ideas on anyone else to suggest that what I do or think is right for them. We're all individuals and as such we all need to find our own way through to establish our own true identity which is unique to ourself. No matter how much experience I've had in the TG world, or how much experience I've had with hormones or any other related matter, I can't say this or that is right for anyone else, we all have to make our own determinations as no two people are exactly alike. I believe one of the beautiful things about public forums such as this one is that we can put our personal experiences and ideas out there for all to read and everyone can take on board or dismiss as much or as little as they choose, which suits their own circumstances, and this is how those coming behind us learn and hopefully avoid some of the angst many of us may have suffered in days gone by.

Kind Regards to all,

Sally.

[Absaroka]

Iwas thinking about some of the attributes listed as female. Some, like menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause, I just can't relate to althoughI've watched very carefully as it has happened to people I love. Especially pregnancy and childbirth. And although none of these things define a woman they are a very important part of life for many women.

On a far lesser note another comment intrigued me. The comment about women getting dirty doing things like working in the garden. There is something about the sensuality of getting hot, sweaty, and dirty while doing hard work that is fun. A lot of guys feel this way. And so do some women and I find that this is something that really attracts me in women. I guess you could say I find the same thing masculine in men and feminine in women.

On the other hand some people have some strange ideas about feminimity. I remember a GG saying that she thought nothing could be less feminine than pregnancy. Again, I am not saying this should define anyone. But that struck me as really strange, and as I heard it I thought how her idea of feminine was delicate, thin, and sexy. I won't go into how many men find pregnancy to be sexy, except to say that we probably all know that a lot of us do. But pregnancy as un-feminine?

Andrea

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

For those who don't have feelings of being born in the wrong bod, I'd say it's about being feminine rather than female.

In fact I'd go further -- get your flamethrowers ready -- and say that for a number of folks it may have less to do with being feminine than being not male. A lot of CDs do seem to have a preference for being girly girls in ways that don't have a lot to do with how "typical" GGs look, dress and behave -- let alone having anything do to with menstruation, pregnancy, etc.

For me, escapism is was definitely one reason I started (and continue) dressing. So to me it's telling that we refer to ourselves as girls. Men (and women) have mortgages to pay and kids to feed. Girls just wanna have fun. (Interestingly, there's a parallel group of "bois" in the lesbian community who dress like young guys and exhibit a similar desire to be care-free.)

So if we're (in part) trying to escape the straight-jacketing aspects of male gender roles, it's hardly surprising that it's tempting to swing all the way to what appears to be the polar opposite. Hence the fascination with skirts and dresses, precisely because they're specifically not mens' wear. Likewise, the not uncommon passivity en femme in the bedroom is less a reflection of what CDs think is women's "appropriate" role, and has far more to the do with escaping pressure to "perform."

Anyway, there's lot of other motivations for CDing, and I doubt anyone has a single motive, so this is probably only part of the equation for most folks.

Transman Raven Kaldera also had some good throughts (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/writing/transpersonal7.html) on the stereotypical behavior that's often seen:

Sometimes when you drag out an opposite-sex persona - so to speak - you find that it's been stashed in the same mental closet as all the things that you don't like about the opposite gender, and they've become stuck all over it like barnacles, or growths. They won't flake off until that persona has been exposed to the air for a while, and gotten a chance to rub up against real people and real circumstances. This may mean plowing through years of humiliating stereotypical behavior until that part of you evolves and grows into a fuller human being. I've seen it again and again, especially in people who are just starting to cross-dress or whose CD persona only gets out once in a while. Stereotypes abound: the trashy whore, the catty and manipulative upper-class bitch, the irresponsible little girl, the supported housewife who never has to work or deal with the outside world, the delicately passive - and utterly useless - ornament, and, of course, Mom. In the bedroom, the sexual stereotypes can be even more cartoon-like, from Sweet Gwen the Victim to the Dragon Lady, but is most commonly the passive, receptive do-me-queen that men don't usually get to be. Sometimes their personas are clearly signposts pointing to the issues that they are bravely working through....

Women are often horrified and offended when men deliberately imitate women, whether it's a female impersonator in a drag performance or a fetishistic cross-dresser in ratty nylons and a bad wig. They feel that these performances of female gender are a bad caricature, and don't actually resemble the real experience of women. While it's true that a performance, or even a persona, is by definition shallower than a person, there's still a grain (or a sackful) of truth to these performances. For every one of these stereotypes being performed by men, I've met the same ones being performed by women, and in larger numbers. I've met the biologically female version of every one of these caricatures, and I'm sure that the women who complain about the guys in dresses probably have, too.

The only quibble I have with Kaldera is that I think it's not as much things you don't like about the opposite gender, as much as things you're ambivalent about and/or envy -- both of which are far more complicated emotions. If you've ever dated a Sweet Gwen, you know how frustrating it is to have to make all the moves and simulatenously you may wish you could sit back and be done to for a change. Of course Sweet Gwen is probably quite frustrated herself for different reasons... but as discussed earlier, we're dealing in imagination vs. reality.

[Beauty]

Hi Darla,

That was a wonderful post. I wish everyone who felt like you could express their feelings so well. I'm not kidding, that really was a great insight to people who CD who are similar to you in the CD spectrum.

Thank you!!!!!

Gracie

[Absaroka]

I agree with Gracie. Lots of insight there.

Andrea