Ladies, I have a bit of a problem. With all difference to those of you who have problems with labels, this is not meant to label anyone. There exists in "our" world, certain of us on different paths and I guess I am a bit confused (no comment, yes I am easily confused). I do not expect to be taken to the wood shed over this I hope but I would like some idea of what we are, so to speak.
1, Crossdresser - I think we all know that one, even with its wide variations of how often, what we wear. when, why (well we don't really know why).
- the two big ones =
2. Trans-gendered:?
3. Trans -sexual?
- just a couple of additonal ?'s -
4. Are crossdressers afflicted with GID (gender identy disorder)?
5. If a crossdresser is afflicted with GID are they truly a crossdresser?
6. All things being equal, how long can a "pre-op" remain a pre-op and still be considered a "pre-op?"
This is not a test, just looking for answers, if there are answers.
Thanks girls for your help!
Virginia
Definitions, not labels
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
-
Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
Definitions, not labels
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
-
Paulie
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 224
- Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:30 pm
- Location: Colorado
Well Virginia....
You can sure come up with some deep questions!
I would have to imagine there would be as many different answers to your questions as people who reply.
I, personally, would have to say that I am simply a CD. I'm comfortable with myself and who I am.... I just enjoy wearing womens clothes whenever possible. I've gotten to a point in my life where I really don't want to analyze why I do this any longer. Part of my reason for that is finding out how many others are like me out there, so I don't feel so all alone and can say to myself that there isn't anything "wrong" with me... I'm just a little different to the norm.
Whatever the "norm" would be! That's another debate in itself!
You can sure come up with some deep questions!
I would have to imagine there would be as many different answers to your questions as people who reply.
I, personally, would have to say that I am simply a CD. I'm comfortable with myself and who I am.... I just enjoy wearing womens clothes whenever possible. I've gotten to a point in my life where I really don't want to analyze why I do this any longer. Part of my reason for that is finding out how many others are like me out there, so I don't feel so all alone and can say to myself that there isn't anything "wrong" with me... I'm just a little different to the norm.
Whatever the "norm" would be! That's another debate in itself!
-
Carolynn
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 2754
- Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:52 pm
- Location: Oklahoma City area
- Contact:
Hi Virginia. 
Glad to see your thinking.
I was curious about the same kinds of definitions when I first started therapy, and we went into in some depth since I was. We finally agreed that the following was generally accurate, if the labels are important--and they are or you wouldn't be asking, huh.
Ok, Transgender and transgendered is the new politically correct umbrella for all people who are called TV, CD, TS, and maybe even drag queens who live pretty much full time (usually TS and doing performances to save money for surgery). She suggested it was started by activists trying to bring the larger group as a whole into a political umbrella to join GLBA and try to have some clout for T-rights. Remember, there are damn few states that protect transsexuals (or crossdressers) from hate crimes and protect their jobs, and there is no protection under the federal govt. either. There was a recent case where four men premeditatedly beat, raped, tortured and murdered a 16 years old TS, hauled her body out in the country and buried her, and these creeps were only convicted of 2nd degree murder. If you think this is unusal, go to the web site, Remembering our Dead.
Transsexual-- A person suffering from GID. Gender Identiy Disorder is not itself so much a medical condition, but the depression and it's attendant side effects, disorganisation in your personal and workplace life and including self mutilation and suicide, are disorders that need to be treated. Often the only treatment is transition, but there can be levels of transition. For some of those who for a variety of reason, do not want to go to GRS, then lesser degrees including hormone treatment, and change to a 24/7 feminine lifestyle, to low level hormone treatments--enough to remove the conflicts effects along with therapy, to those who decide for a plethora of reasons to maintain the male facade until a later time or for good, with therapy to help them cope.
Which brings us to the pre-op question. One of the first things any therapist will tell you, is that you have to do what feels right for you. For some, becoming preop and not having SRS may be a financial decision, that might change if the financial picture changes. Many long term preops at least have an orchiotomy so they don't have to keep taking T-blockers, and most are, hmmm, impotent or chemically castrated well before that. (If that thought made you cringe, you are unlikely to be TS!! ) Essentially, these preops can be preops forever if that is what they have or need to do, but they will be living as and working as women.
There are self described Shemales out there, some of whom use cosmetic procedures to enhance their fem features, but are just real happy with their born gender equipment, and wouldn't use hormones or lose their pride for anything. Most non-ops are not She-Males, (though some TSs may slip into porno and perform as such for a time for subsistence or try to get money for surgery) and use the super viagra (delivered by needle I'm told) to achieve the rectitude desired for the shows. I do not know how many, there are, but the true shemale kinda likes the extra "toys" she can bring to bed. The basic difference here is that a TS doesn't like what they were born with, feel its just wrong, and want it off, and they want the life they were cheated of by some accident of nature. They regard themselves as having a birth defect needing correction.
Then there is the "do crossdressers suffer from GID"? Sometimes, and they may be in denial, or trying to cope with the GID by crossdressing. Remember what I wrote a couple of paragraphs ago. However, the term GD or Gender Dysphoria covers everyone who finds a level of discomfort with their gender, and is more accurate in describing the average CDer. CDing is a coping mechanism to the extent that CDing give us all a release from the stress and strains of our everyday life. As has been noted on this site several times, as CDs get older, they become more comfortable as their other selves, and find sex is no longer a driving force or the objective when they CD, as it MIGHT have been in the younger years. That's still different from TS. Remember, the TS doesn't want her or his born gender and its appurtenances.
Can someone with GID be considered a crossdresser? At any one point in time, most TS have been crossdressers versus their born gender usually as a way to cope and maybe not knowing enough about themselves and the alternatives to do much else. In another sense most TS have been CD in their "everyday life", presenting as the gender they were designated as versus how they self identify. It's when they can be themselves, and this applies equally well to m2f and f2ms, that they are happiest, and versus their born gender, that would make them crossdressers again at that time. So I think you could say they are the most constant of crossdressers. Hmmm, hope that came out right!!
Me, I see a continuum ranging from the occasional somewhat fetishistic TV, through the CD, through the TS, and maybe ending up with some of the intersex folks where the surgeon made a mistake while playing god and made some woman a guy, and vice versa. These latter folks that I have met are kind of a special case of TS, but they usually have to jump throught the same hoops, which doesn't seem all that fair considering medicine created them in the first place.
Well, food for thought.
Love Carolynn
Glad to see your thinking.I was curious about the same kinds of definitions when I first started therapy, and we went into in some depth since I was. We finally agreed that the following was generally accurate, if the labels are important--and they are or you wouldn't be asking, huh.
Ok, Transgender and transgendered is the new politically correct umbrella for all people who are called TV, CD, TS, and maybe even drag queens who live pretty much full time (usually TS and doing performances to save money for surgery). She suggested it was started by activists trying to bring the larger group as a whole into a political umbrella to join GLBA and try to have some clout for T-rights. Remember, there are damn few states that protect transsexuals (or crossdressers) from hate crimes and protect their jobs, and there is no protection under the federal govt. either. There was a recent case where four men premeditatedly beat, raped, tortured and murdered a 16 years old TS, hauled her body out in the country and buried her, and these creeps were only convicted of 2nd degree murder. If you think this is unusal, go to the web site, Remembering our Dead.
Transsexual-- A person suffering from GID. Gender Identiy Disorder is not itself so much a medical condition, but the depression and it's attendant side effects, disorganisation in your personal and workplace life and including self mutilation and suicide, are disorders that need to be treated. Often the only treatment is transition, but there can be levels of transition. For some of those who for a variety of reason, do not want to go to GRS, then lesser degrees including hormone treatment, and change to a 24/7 feminine lifestyle, to low level hormone treatments--enough to remove the conflicts effects along with therapy, to those who decide for a plethora of reasons to maintain the male facade until a later time or for good, with therapy to help them cope.
Which brings us to the pre-op question. One of the first things any therapist will tell you, is that you have to do what feels right for you. For some, becoming preop and not having SRS may be a financial decision, that might change if the financial picture changes. Many long term preops at least have an orchiotomy so they don't have to keep taking T-blockers, and most are, hmmm, impotent or chemically castrated well before that. (If that thought made you cringe, you are unlikely to be TS!!
) Essentially, these preops can be preops forever if that is what they have or need to do, but they will be living as and working as women. There are self described Shemales out there, some of whom use cosmetic procedures to enhance their fem features, but are just real happy with their born gender equipment, and wouldn't use hormones or lose their pride for anything. Most non-ops are not She-Males, (though some TSs may slip into porno and perform as such for a time for subsistence or try to get money for surgery) and use the super viagra (delivered by needle I'm told) to achieve the rectitude desired for the shows. I do not know how many, there are, but the true shemale kinda likes the extra "toys" she can bring to bed. The basic difference here is that a TS doesn't like what they were born with, feel its just wrong, and want it off, and they want the life they were cheated of by some accident of nature. They regard themselves as having a birth defect needing correction.
Then there is the "do crossdressers suffer from GID"? Sometimes, and they may be in denial, or trying to cope with the GID by crossdressing. Remember what I wrote a couple of paragraphs ago. However, the term GD or Gender Dysphoria covers everyone who finds a level of discomfort with their gender, and is more accurate in describing the average CDer. CDing is a coping mechanism to the extent that CDing give us all a release from the stress and strains of our everyday life. As has been noted on this site several times, as CDs get older, they become more comfortable as their other selves, and find sex is no longer a driving force or the objective when they CD, as it MIGHT have been in the younger years. That's still different from TS. Remember, the TS doesn't want her or his born gender and its appurtenances.
Can someone with GID be considered a crossdresser? At any one point in time, most TS have been crossdressers versus their born gender usually as a way to cope and maybe not knowing enough about themselves and the alternatives to do much else. In another sense most TS have been CD in their "everyday life", presenting as the gender they were designated as versus how they self identify. It's when they can be themselves, and this applies equally well to m2f and f2ms, that they are happiest, and versus their born gender, that would make them crossdressers again at that time. So I think you could say they are the most constant of crossdressers. Hmmm, hope that came out right!!
Me, I see a continuum ranging from the occasional somewhat fetishistic TV, through the CD, through the TS, and maybe ending up with some of the intersex folks where the surgeon made a mistake while playing god and made some woman a guy, and vice versa. These latter folks that I have met are kind of a special case of TS, but they usually have to jump throught the same hoops, which doesn't seem all that fair considering medicine created them in the first place.
Well, food for thought.
Love Carolynn
Last edited by Carolynn on Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It’s not given to anyone to have no regrets; only to decide, through the choices we make, which regrets we’ll have,"
David Weber – In Fury Born
David Weber – In Fury Born
-
DonnaT
- Miss Great Goddess
- Posts: 8222
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:04 am
- Location: No. Virginia
Re: Definitions, not labels
2. Trans-gendered:? Transgendered to me is the umbrella term under which CD/TV/TS all appear. There is an ongoing debate on the issue.
3. Trans -sexual? Someone who believes they have the wrong body compared to thier brain gender.
- just a couple of additonal ?'s -
4. Are crossdressers afflicted with GID (gender identy disorder)? Some are, some aren't. Some CD just as a fetish.
5. If a crossdresser is afflicted with GID are they truly a crossdresser? Of course, if they dress in the attire of the opposite sex.
6. All things being equal, how long can a "pre-op" remain a pre-op and still be considered a "pre-op?" Until they have the operation.
3. Trans -sexual? Someone who believes they have the wrong body compared to thier brain gender.
- just a couple of additonal ?'s -
4. Are crossdressers afflicted with GID (gender identy disorder)? Some are, some aren't. Some CD just as a fetish.
5. If a crossdresser is afflicted with GID are they truly a crossdresser? Of course, if they dress in the attire of the opposite sex.
6. All things being equal, how long can a "pre-op" remain a pre-op and still be considered a "pre-op?" Until they have the operation.
DonnaT
-
Loretta Ann
- Permanently Banned
- Posts: 2199
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:30 pm
- Location: Vancouver, Canada
Hey Sis,
Are we afraid of the term Label? After all it is only an item used to identify something or someone, so that there can be some kind of an understanding and/or a discussion about it.
Not taking you to the wood shed, Just curious due to the title of this thread. "Definitions, not labels" Perhaps it is me who is easily confused.
Are we afraid of the term Label? After all it is only an item used to identify something or someone, so that there can be some kind of an understanding and/or a discussion about it.
Not taking you to the wood shed, Just curious due to the title of this thread. "Definitions, not labels" Perhaps it is me who is easily confused.
Last edited by Loretta Ann on Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
Ladies, Please, I had no hidden agenda in broaching this topic. I was only seeking to find out if what I defined as various interpretations were realistic and you have confirmed that. I just needed to know that my understandings were not our in left field so to speak! Thanks.
Paulie, honey I am with you, I have given up trying to psychoanalyse myself. I am who I am, I do what I feel is right for me and let it go at that.
Loretta, Yes I am going to continue to learn and one of my reasons for this query was, as I begin to interact more with those in our "diverse universe" and I am not embarrassed to ask them what they consider themselves to be then I will have some understadning of where they are coming from so to speak and once in a while I might run into someone who is looking for help in finding themselves and this would give me reference point from which to help them.
Thanks again for your hard work ladies, I hope this also helps a lot of our sisters who may find time to read this as well.
Love,
Virginia
Paulie, honey I am with you, I have given up trying to psychoanalyse myself. I am who I am, I do what I feel is right for me and let it go at that.
Loretta, Yes I am going to continue to learn and one of my reasons for this query was, as I begin to interact more with those in our "diverse universe" and I am not embarrassed to ask them what they consider themselves to be then I will have some understadning of where they are coming from so to speak and once in a while I might run into someone who is looking for help in finding themselves and this would give me reference point from which to help them.
Thanks again for your hard work ladies, I hope this also helps a lot of our sisters who may find time to read this as well.
Love,
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
-
Carolynn
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 2754
- Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:52 pm
- Location: Oklahoma City area
- Contact:
http://www.gwensmith.com/writing/transmissions8.html for a post-op activist view.
http://www.gwensmith.com/writing/transmissions43.html
http://www.gwensmith.com/writing/transmissions43.html
Last edited by Carolynn on Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It’s not given to anyone to have no regrets; only to decide, through the choices we make, which regrets we’ll have,"
David Weber – In Fury Born
David Weber – In Fury Born
-
Jeannie
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:19 pm
- Location: Connecticut
I stoped trying to analize myself and go with the feeling.
Ladies . As a 55 year old male who just came out to my wife of 25 years and have been dressing since age 8 I know three things about myself. I love dressing and feeling like a woman. I'm a heterosexual man. But I'm definately a submissive lesbian female when Jeannie. " Kiss me and have your way with me you fool" I'm such a girlie girl!
Luv and hugs
Jeannie
Luv and hugs
Jeannie
-
Jeannie
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:19 pm
- Location: Connecticut
By the way Virginia
I forgot to mention to you Virginia you looook marvelous as a blonde. Cute!Cute!Cute! Big Hug.
Jeannie
Jeannie
-
Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3344
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
Good questions Virginia and lots of good answers.
About the labels thing. This seemed to get started a little while ago when there was discussion of how we define ourselves and a lot of people, myself included, said that there is something bigger than labels that defines who I am. And I think this is very true. But nontheless labels are important if for no other reason than they contain the words we use to describe ourselves.
I have read elsewhere that most crossdressers are primarily fetishists. Somehow fetishs still have a lot of unpleasant connotations. So I think sometimes we don't like to talk about that. And maybe this particular website attracts members who are more on the trasngendered end of the spectrum. But for me, no matter how much I talk about my male and female aspects being integrated into one person and simultaneously get theatrical about my femme side, I am basically I think a fetishist. Thats just me. And no I don't really like the world. It sounds too close to pervert which I am not.
Helen Boyd's book My Husband Betty talks a lot about the continuum of who we are and her impressions of what makes us tick. I recommend it strongly.
Andrea
About the labels thing. This seemed to get started a little while ago when there was discussion of how we define ourselves and a lot of people, myself included, said that there is something bigger than labels that defines who I am. And I think this is very true. But nontheless labels are important if for no other reason than they contain the words we use to describe ourselves.
I have read elsewhere that most crossdressers are primarily fetishists. Somehow fetishs still have a lot of unpleasant connotations. So I think sometimes we don't like to talk about that. And maybe this particular website attracts members who are more on the trasngendered end of the spectrum. But for me, no matter how much I talk about my male and female aspects being integrated into one person and simultaneously get theatrical about my femme side, I am basically I think a fetishist. Thats just me. And no I don't really like the world. It sounds too close to pervert which I am not.
Helen Boyd's book My Husband Betty talks a lot about the continuum of who we are and her impressions of what makes us tick. I recommend it strongly.
Andrea
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
-
Loretta Ann
- Permanently Banned
- Posts: 2199
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:30 pm
- Location: Vancouver, Canada
-
Beauty
- Retired Site Administrator
- Posts: 3662
- Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:30 am
- Location: Northern VA
- Contact:
Hi Virginia,
Everyone of these definitions of gender stuff is debatable. There is no absolute, but by reading these you can get the gist of what some people are thinking.
You'd be better off asking each person what they think they are versus what they think CD, TV, TS, GID, gender dysphoria, etc means. I've seen this topic a hundred times and a hundred different ways and you always get different answers.
The thing that I've noticed more is people tend to put their own feelings about who they are into the meanings/definitions of one of the types. I attribute this to being in the fishbowl. So, take it for what it's worth, but in my opinion you're better off just asking. The medical community, who's not in the fishbowl can't even agree so a bunch of TG'd people (another term not agreed upon) will be even less likely to hit the nail on the head.
Gracie
Everyone of these definitions of gender stuff is debatable. There is no absolute, but by reading these you can get the gist of what some people are thinking.
You'd be better off asking each person what they think they are versus what they think CD, TV, TS, GID, gender dysphoria, etc means. I've seen this topic a hundred times and a hundred different ways and you always get different answers.
The thing that I've noticed more is people tend to put their own feelings about who they are into the meanings/definitions of one of the types. I attribute this to being in the fishbowl. So, take it for what it's worth, but in my opinion you're better off just asking. The medical community, who's not in the fishbowl can't even agree so a bunch of TG'd people (another term not agreed upon) will be even less likely to hit the nail on the head.
Gracie