What is the pay off?

[Paulie]

Well..... and this topic have one thing in common.... very deep!

Makes you think.... so, I felt I would add my .02 cents worth.

I can remember when I first started dressing, and that was usually just underwear, that I had no idea why I was doing this, but I was maybe curious to begin with, and that it just felt right. Into my teens and for some time beyond that, it still felt right, but alot of it revolved around the sexual release aspect. I guess at that time I could convince myself that it was my way of getting off. As I became older and starting dressing more completely more of the time, I realized that CD'g was so much more.

So, here I am, still really not knowing why I do this, and yet knowing how right it feels, how much I enjoy dressing and seeing myself dressed.

I know there are bookloads of theories and studies that would tell us all exactly why we dress, and many would say it's abnormal and we could be "cured".

All I can say is... I am who I am and am comfortable with me. I'm a great person and I love to CD. I don't think there is any payoff whatsoever to dressing other than the feelings I have when dressed. I also would agree that it makes me a little better on my male side too. I certainly understand what women go thru sometimes! LOL

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Bernice,

In My Husband Betty, there were points made about who can wear what. The author really knocked me for a loop when she pointed out that NO woman (GG) can really wear what she wants - not in today's society. Anything she wears will be subject to potentially intense criticism, and she may face even worse consequences for her choices. Some may say it is too sexy or promiscuous. Others will say it is not feminine enough. A woman today has to walk a very tight line and dress to please whomever she expects to confront that day, and hope for the best. For better or worse, perhaps people pay too much attention to what other people wear.

I spent a short while as a member of Helen Boyd's site, and I would say that I found her to be a lot like that.

To me confronting and pleasing others are at opposite ends of each other. They do not work well together. I think one needs to choose between pleasing others or being themselves. In fact I will go one further. Those who are pleasers are attempting to please those who have the inner strength to be who they are. I say attempting to because they will always be doing that. They will never succeed, their will always be someone else (or some other thing) to please.

There will always be some pleasers and leaders (controllers and followers) around. That is not about to change.

[Absaroka]

I would have to say that I really don't know what the payoff is for me. In the beginning it was all about sex. But now there is something else going on.

Sometimes it feels as if because for so long I thought about how I couldn't allow myself to get caught that I just got stuck here.

Sometimes I eat the same way. Now that is a problem. It has lead to some unhealthiness.

But CDing feels like binging on a diet sometimes. The more you can't do it for some reason the more I want to. Just as being on a diet makes me want to eat too much of stuff that is bad for me, the knowledge that I personally do not feel able to deal with what I think would happen if I were to come out means that this delicious secret retains it's power over me.

This is just me. It sounds like a lot of the people here have a somewhat different experience of this.

Andrea

[Xenia]

Hi Paulie

[...]
So, here I am, still really not knowing why I do this, and yet knowing how right it feels, how much I enjoy dressing and seeing myself dressed.

I know there are bookloads of theories and studies that would tell us all exactly why we dress, and many would say it's abnormal and we could be "cured".

All I can say is... I am who I am and am comfortable with me. I'm a great person and I love to CD. I don't think there is any payoff whatsoever to dressing other than the feelings I have when dressed. I also would agree that it makes me a little better on my male side too. I certainly understand what women go thru sometimes! LOL

I think you experience what many CDers experience - you are certainly not alone. And the best is that you seem to be comfortable with it. Be glad about that. When I was finally comfortable with myself being TG, I thought, why did it take me so long (though I tend to think it must have some meaning that it did take so long. But what meaning?)

I have read loads of books about tg-topics - am a bookaholic anyway. I don't know which one's you have read, maybe mainly older studies. Some of those are outdated and one can only find out in how far, if one reads backwards from the newer literature.
None of the serious modern studies mentions any cures for CDing anymore (that's what I anyway had suspected ) - if there are not serious other mental problems involved (still then, what's a "cure"?).
Only finding acceptance comes close to the effect of a cure. However non-acceptance can make one sick, or the feeling to live a lie.

Helen Boyd's book is well worth reading - she did her homework very well, I think. Richard Novic's "Alice in Genderland" also has many nice thoughts. Scientifically speaking there seems to be nothing newer in English since the Bullough's "Crossdressing, Sex and Gender".

If you tend to think that there is more to it for you than just CDing, and if you anyway want to get a broad perspective, then get to read "true selves", Stephen Whittle's small, but comprehensive "The transgender debate" (Whittle is himself a trans-man and activist in GB), Tracie O'Keafe's (ed.) "Finding the real me" (with ca. 25 personal stories of gender variance), and some of the biographies (by Donna Rose, Jennifer Boylan, Geri Nettick, and Erica Zander. Older one's: Jan Morris, and Erica Rutherford). All worthwhile the effort. There are of course more if you read other languages than English - for me as a European US-perspective are of course as interesting and valuable, but can be different (like in politics, faith and religion).


Best

Xenia

[Cathy L. Anderson]

Hi Xenia,

...if there are not serious other mental problems involved (still then, what's a "cure"?).

I don't disagree with anything you say in your post. But, in the spirit of constructive discourse, which so often involves clarification of terms, I have a comment on this part.

I believe it is possible for a person to stop CDing--to outgrow or move beyond it. I see CDing often as a transitional stage in integration of feminine aspects of the personality. Perhaps this is not a "cure" in the most literal, restrictive sense of the term. Therefore, by the literal definition, it may indeed be true that "we cannot cure CDing"--but, if so, that is true by right of the definitions involved. But the phrase "we cannot cure CDing" can also be interpreted by some to mean "you cannot stop CDing"--and I don't agree with that.

A philosphical point: if something feels good, brings certain benefits, and you don't want to change, does that guarantee it is not "disordered?"

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you--just trying to make discussion on the excellent points you raised.

[Added later: I'm not happy with my post here. I'm not able to express the point I want to make, which has more to do with how we constrain ourselves with language--e.g., saying either "CDing is good" or "CDing is bad", when, in fact, it might be both, or either, depending on the person, the extent, the timing, stage of life, the circumstances, the motives, etc.]

Cathy

[Paulie]

Xenia....
Thanks for the info you provided, I'll have to look into some of those books. What I was primarily referring to when I said "cure", was the older school of thought. The problem we have, as I see it, is too many people in society do not stay up on the current, and still have that old school thought process which says there is something wrong with one who CDs.

I for one, know there is NOTHING wrong with me, and I will keep enjoying myself!

Cathy....
Thanks for your insights. Thats what I love so much about this forum, is the exchange of ideas and thoughts. We can have discussions and different perspectives on a subject and speak freely about them.

Just like they used to say "if it feels good, do it" LOL

[Xenia]

Hi Cathy,

Hi Xenia,

...if there are not serious other mental problems involved (still then, what's a "cure"?).

[...]I believe it is possible for a person to stop CDing--to outgrow or move beyond it. I see CDing often as a transitional stage in integration of feminine aspects of the personality. Perhaps this is not a "cure" in the most literal, restrictive sense of the term. Therefore, by the literal definition, it may indeed be true that "we cannot cure CDing"--but, if so, that is true by right of the definitions involved. But the phrase "we cannot cure CDing" can also be interpreted by some to mean "you cannot stop CDing"--and I don't agree with that.

I would agree with your not agreeing.
However, I'd say, it is possible for some, may be a few only, or for many - we don't know.

If something gets hooked up mainly on use of terms, definitions, I think a pragmatical approach might be helpful:
Does stopping CDing help the resp. person or not?
If it helps and s/he has integrated feminine traits (however defined) into his male persona, fine. If it didn't work, s/he should go on with CDing - and possibly seek professional assistance if the gender thing eats more and more of your life. That how it has been for me.

A philosphical point: if something feels good, brings certain benefits, and you don't want to change, does that guarantee it is not "disordered?"

Depends on how "disordered" is defined and by whom.
In societies which accept certain forms of crossdressing or gender variance it will probably not be a disorder.

Concerning the literature, I am very disappointed in the general lack of scholarship in the field. Nobody has supplied a serious, thorough review of the literature. It's all "pop psychology," at best. With the possible exception of Rachel Miller's "The Bliss of Becoming One" (now apparently out of print) nobody ever talked about something as obvious as Jung's theories on mens' feminine natures.

The literature I mentioned, with exception of the Bulloughs's study, was of course not scientific/scholarly. And as there are so many thoughts, hypothesises around, I can't help thinking that it will never be found out. And if, what then ... would there be bad scientist who would try to use the complex results for curing? The word "cure" and alike evokes bad ghosts about curing what the majority sees as deviation.


Erica Rutherford mentions the anima-theory. As a transsexual and feeling female, she didn't consider it to fit her case. But of course, that's an autobiography not a product of science.

Maybe in this branch of humanity, science has reached a dead end, needs to find other ways. So, autobiographies might have more validity.

Interesting subject, thanks for your thoughts


best
Xenia

[Virginia]

OK ladies, how great this is! And Xeina it is really a word, no offense, but I have never seen the "al" added to pragmatic - you ladies are just adding to my education so much!
I for one appreciate reading what you see in "us." I must admit that I look at this from a somewhat selfish standpoint. That is first, I know I am not "nuts." Second, since I accept my "gift" and I love it (that is the best way I can describe it) and I do not have any problem in dealing with it then according to the "DSM-IV-TR", I ain't nuts so that being settled, what do I do with it and how do I share it? Well I find myself sharing the feminine characteristics that I find so appealing with anyone and everyone that I come into contact with whether I am dressed or not. Empathy, patience, concern, sharing, touching, listening. These seem to become more and more a part of me - naturally! I use to have to force them out of me, now with the (still to me) amazing responses I get they seem to come more naturally. Speaking with someone and as you say to them, sincerely say to them, "I know how you feel!" and gently reach out and touch their arm - It is like someone hit them with a 2x4 but they love it. You can sense them thinking, "damn, this person actually sees me as a real person and is actually listening to what I am saying - how cool it that, I matter to someone!" It has to come from the heart however, or people can see right through you. For me it is sincere, that is what Virginia does for me! The dressing, yes I love to dress up and to go out, but it is just not as important as intergrating the feminine characteristics into my very being. That is where I am in this "Magical Mystery Tour" and I love it!!!!
Thank you all for being there, I hope that all my sisters here can take advantage of the wisdom that you share with us!
Love,
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Cathy,

I believe it is possible for a person to stop CDing--to outgrow or move beyond it.

That very statement appears to imply that cross dressing then is not a mature activity?
I would certainly think you are in the minority. I would be interested in seeing how it is that you have arrived at that conclusion? What needs to happen for one to out grow it?

[Cathy L. Anderson]

Hi Paulie,

Just like they used to say "if it feels good, do it" LOL

I know you mean this to make a point and not literally--but the statement itself is worthy of remark because people do often think this way.

Basically, isn't the problem the following paradox: at any given moment, choosing what feels good produces a positive outcome--so it's a "correct" decision; but over the course of years, choosing pleasure consistently can produce a negative outcome, or a net loss when missed opportunities are taken into account?

Moderation is one potential way to solve the paradox.

Cathy

[Absaroka]

I don't know if cure or outgrow are the right words. They have all these implications, of sickness or childishness and so on. But to me it seems that since people grow and become in all sorts of ways it is only reasonable to think that some will grow in a direction that leads them to not feel a need or desire to crossdress anymore. By the same token some of us have grown into cross dressing.

One person growing in a way that leaves crossdressing behind does not have implications that anyone else needs to travel that particular path. Likewise on of the things I like about this forum is that occaisionally we hear from folks who have stopped crossdressing for whatever period of time and the same acceptance we expect for those who keep doing it is extended to those who stop. No preaching about what anyone "should" do. It is one of the things that makes this forum a rare treasure.

Andrea

[Xenia]

Hi Cathy and everyone,

when talking about integrating the real or assumed feminine traits, why that would or even should lead to stopping CDing.
Again a cultural question: Why don't/didn't CDs stop CDing in cultures where it is/was accepted, so that an individual would be allowed to openly combine feminine/masculine traits?

In other words: Why shouldn't it be less desirable to express such traits by dressing after one has integrated fem- traits? Why should it be desirable to stop it?

Just wondering

Best

Xenia

[Cathy L. Anderson]

One person growing in a way that leaves crossdressing behind does not have implications that anyone else needs to travel that particular path.

Definitely! One of the biggest problems is that people tend to think in terms of absolutes. I try to have no absolute beliefs concerning CDing or transgenderism in general. Everything I suggest in my posts is intended as "what if?" and never "should" or "ought." I hope people understand that.

Cathy

[Cathy L. Anderson]

Hi Xenia,

Why don't/didn't CDs stop CDing in cultures where it is/was accepted, so that an individual would be allowed to openly combine feminine/masculine traits?...less desirable to express such traits by dressing after one has integrated fem- traits? Why should it be desirable to stop it?

Very good and constructive questions. I must confess Socractic ignorance. But in the spirit of pursuing constructive dialogue, let me attempt, however inadequately, to answer by referring to my own personal experience (which is, of course, very limited).

But first, a word about culture. In cultures where CDing is tolerated, CDers are given subordinate status. They are, depending on culture, tolerated or feared, but usually, as far as I know, not really "accepted."

Anyway, I choose to limit dressing because:

1. My main motive for dealing with society is to be of assistance to other people. I find this is promoted by staying within conventional gender definitions. In other words, why confuse people who might not have much tolerance for ambiguity in this matter?

2. Fussing with female clothes, makeup, etc. takes energy from what I consider more constructive pursuits.

3. I have found, personally, that spending time en femme has a way of
decreasing my vigor. I don't know if it's a hormonal thing, but I suspect that it is.

4. Although I have had a desire to be female pretty much all my life, and despite the fact that it can seem extremely strong, I basically believe that this is a very small part of my personality. Like 5%. The other 95% is male. It has to do with a basic definition of "self." Subjectively, introspectively, it might seem to me that I'm 50% male and 50% female. But--to the world, to other people in my experience, I am 95% male.

If I were to be completely egoistic, then I would only pay attention to my inner priorities. But (and this is a wonderful revelation of Jungian psychology), other people, and their view of me, to the extent that it is a major part of *my experiential world*, IS part of me.

People set me up as a role model and, perhaps, a father figure. I suppose I could complain about how this limits me. But instead I see it as an opportunity.

5. Clothing, in my personal opinion, has little to do with being "feminine." Femininity is more a state of mind. When I am patient with people. When I avoid anger. When I think about helping instead of competing--those are the important elements of "femininity."

Finally, wigs make my head itch!

Cathy

[CJ]

Hi all,

Well! A fine discussion! You folks are awesome. This kind of back and forth is like watching a very civilized tennis match where the stakes are not a trophy or a cash prize but simply the edification of all involved. It's a great thing to witness.

I'll throw a few points into the mix. As has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, some members of the APA (The American Psychiatric Association, responsible for the content of the DSM-IV-tr--their Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, Fourth Edition, text revision) are coming to realize that, like homosexuality before it, Gender Identity Disorder (and, to a lesser extent, Transvestic Fetishism, a "mere" paraphilia), is distressing to those individuals "afflicted" with this "disorder" not just because of anything inherent in the "condition" but largely because of the impact social intolerance has on these individuals' lives. CD's and TS's, like gays before them, suffer because who they are transgresses social norms. And there's the rub. Just how fluid and flexible are these norms? As fluid and flexible as we want them to be.

Yes, there exist two sexes--male and female--for a good reason (and if that reason weren't good enough, none of us would even be here today) but behaviour based solely on biological facts--on genetically inherited instinctive patterns--is the prerogative of animals. Yes, we are animals, too... but we're animals with a "little something extra." That extra is culture. We human beings are more than merely the product of our genes; we're also the product of our memes ( a "meme" being a "cultural unit" passed from one generation to another--sort of like an "idea" or "concept"). The idea that to each of the two sexes there exists one, and only one, corresponding gender is, in fact, a hoary meme. The idea that there exist many variations on the theme of gender is a meme struggling to be born. In our distress, we gender-variant individuals are experiencing the birth pangs of that meme. And so is everyone around us... our friends, our families, our SO's, even the culture at large.

There is no cure possible for this. It's not something to be cured. In fact, it's something to be celebrated. Especially in a society that says it does more than merely pay lip service to cultural diversity. When, in due time, this fundamental split between what we, as a society, say we want for ourselves and what we're actually prepared to tolerate is resolved, we might stand a better chance, as individuals, of (in the terms of transpersonal psychology) "self-actualizing." Until that time, I think that we must press on and, in a way, "embody" this new meme by not being afraid to show the world at large who we are. Even in the face of adversity. Idealistic, I know. But it can be done. One small step at a time. On a case by case basis. Gently. Compassionately.

About those cultures where room was made for the existence of a "third gender" (such as the berdache, for example), it's my understanding that those individuals who were, indeed, transgendered were, in fact, valued by the culture. They were believed to be spiritually powerful and were often assigned roles as shamanistic healers. I don't know if this is true in every such culture but, by and large, such was the case. They were considered a breed apart and, to a large extent, taboo. Perhaps this is one reason why we, here in our own culture, make people uncomfortable; we're taboo, we transgress the established order of the world and yet we still share a profound humanity (or "humanness") with those who would set us apart (and, yes, "cure" us, so that we may become more like they are).

Anyway, these are just a few random musings. I find the folks here very stimulating and I'm glad to be a part of this. Press on, people, press on!

Love,
CJ