What is the pay off?

[Loretta Ann]

I have found, personally, that spending time en femme has a way of decreasing my vigor.

Very interesting
Does the opposite for me. Hmmm.

My main motive for dealing with society is to be of assistance to other people. I find this is promoted by staying within conventional gender definitions. In other words, why confuse people who might not have much tolerance for ambiguity in this matter?

My experience is that my cross dressing enables me to be more helpful to others, as it mellows me out somewhat, enabling me to become more balanced.

I know we are all different, but I find this very confusing and hard to understand? Some of this aligns with nothing else that I have read on this subject.

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

I must admit I also am very confused about much of what Cathy wrote. If I understood correctly she said that she suppresses her desire to crossdress so as not to offend those whom she may be able to help.

This is totally inconsistant with what I beleive to be true. I beleive that anytime we supress who we are for others, we are taking away from what we can be or become and this can have a very negative impact on those of us who have already suppressed who we are for far too long.

Can I stop crossdressing? Perhaps in a limited way, but it's academic because I have never been able to suppress the desire to crossdress. Even in the 14 years where I secretly or with the disapproval of my exwife, underdressed, the desire never diminished.

I guess we all have to decide who we are trying to benefit. I have dedicated a great deal of time and effort to helping others. I get great pleasure from this, however I am unwilling to suppress my crossdressing to do this.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[DonnaT]

Hi girls,

I must admit I also am very confused about much of what Cathy wrote. If I understood correctly she said that she suppresses her desire to crossdress so as not to offend those whom she may be able to help.

I understood it to mean that those she was helping may have confused then such that they concentrated on how she was dressed and why, instead of concentrating on what they were needing help with.

[Loretta Ann]

Hi all,

I understood it to mean that those she was helping may have confused then such that they concentrated on how she was dressed and why, instead of concentrating on what they were needing help with.

And that is some of what I particularly find so confusing about what she writes. It is my experience that you will only help those who want to helped. And usually those who have been put in a place where they are willing to be helped are not all that particular about where the help comes from. I have been helped by my enemies albeit they are not aware of it.

There is what some teachers call a teaching moment. And when that happens the person will learn. Until that happens the best that one can hope to achieve is head knowledge, as opposed to heart knowledge.

[Cathy L. Anderson]

Hi Loretta,

I believe it is possible for a person to stop CDing--to outgrow or move beyond it.

That very statement appears to imply that cross dressing then is not a mature activity?

This is a good example of the problems that language impose. There are degrees of maturity. But there are no discrete categories of "mature" and "immature." No matter how mature a person is, they can always become more mature.

I would certainly think you are in the minority.

What most people think, what experts think, what knowledgable people think, what is true--all potentially different things.

I would be interested in seeing how it is that you have arrived at that conclusion? What needs to happen for one to out grow it?

It's the Jungian theory of individuation/integration. The process continues pretty much without limit until one becomes a saint, bodhissatva, Zen master, or otherwise relates to the Universe free from a subject-object division.

Cathy

[CJ]

Hi all,

I think I understand what Cathy's saying. I, myself, have been put in this strange bind by my employer. On the one hand, he says that many of our clients, being very sensitive and attuned to those around them, can see right past any kind of "wall of secrecy and inauthenticity" so that feeding them a line of BS about who we are and where we're coming from can only have a negative impact on the relationship we have with them. On the other hand (says my boss), many, if not most, of our clients, harbour this deep, deep desire for "normalcy" and are thus fairly socially conservative. They might not be ready to enter into a relationship with a helper who's obviously got gender issues. Thus (says he), crossdress if you want but make sure that it doesn't show (no physical changes... and definitely no talking about it).

The pressure I feel at wanting (and needing) to be authentic with other people and my being forbidden from being so with my clients is enormous. So much so that I've been questioning whether or not I can stay in this job and still do it well. A few of my clients suspect, I think. One, after only a single meeting, told me she senses that I'm "identified to the feminine." How do you reply to that? I told her I was but didn't go into details.

What I've been doing over the past year is getting some of my more "perceptually reluctant" clients to examine this whole concept of "normalcy." Normalcy doesn't exist. It's a phantom. I personally know not a single person I could consider "normal." We all have our baggage, our issues, our ups and downs. Usually, those clients fall back on the statistical definition of "normal" (i.e., what most people do and how most people behave). I tell them that that's the greatest trap of all because, in wanting to emulate "what most people do," they're spending a tremendous amount of psychological energy in minimizing what makes them the unique individuals they are. Sometimes, I tell them it's not normal to not want to be (or to become) the person they are--regardless of what the shape of other lives may look like.

This, I think, is the individuation/integration process Cathy talks about. I just find it hard that, in my own case, it seems to be hampered by the kind of work I do. All is not hopeless, though. If need be, I can always quit and work at a job that won't prevent me from growing in this way. Heck, I now have enough experience to try to start up my own community organization especially devoted to gender-conflicted individuals if I wanted to. Well, with a little administrative help, anyway.

I used to sign my posts with this quote from Virgil's Aeneid: humani nihil a me alienum puto. "Nothing human is alien (or strange) to me." That's exactly what I meant by it: there's no such thing as "normal."

As far as Cathy holding her CD'ing "in check" for the sake of those she's helping, I totally understand. We may not want to live our life for others but sometimes, just sometimes, life requires that we make certain compromises in order to live with others. What's important is that such compromises not force us to twist and bend our own souls out of shape. That is a road that leads only to illness.

Be well, y'all.

Love,
CJ

[Absaroka]

CJ you have probably posted this somewhere but I forget. What is it that you do and what is your role with your clients?

At one time I worked in a mental hospital. Lots of these sorts of issues came up. Be genuine and yet private. Add to the mix quite a few schizophrenic patients with the gift schitzophrenics sometimes have of being able to see right through an awful lot of pretense.

I guess what I would have done is pretty much what you did. Say yes I have a strong feminine component and I have accepted this. Maybe even add that it has been a struggle to transcend some of societies thougths on this. But no details. One thing I found is that I never shared anything with a patient unless I was willing for everyone there to know what I had said and run with it.

Also it was important to remember why I was there, which was to be of service to the patients. Which I am sure you are very attuned to.

Andrea

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Cathy,

I believe it is possible for a person to stop CDing--to outgrow or move beyond it.

That very statement appears to imply that cross dressing then is not a mature activity?

This is a good example of the problems that language impose. There are degrees of maturity. But there are no discrete categories of "mature" and "immature." No matter how mature a person is, they can always become more mature.

OK then...Substitute the word stunted for mature. And yes I know we are all stunted to some degree, so please spare me the education in that direction? We are all on a path some where between Totally imperfect and perfect (Re: immature and mature.) But one needs to reach a certain level in order to become useful to society. Or to say it in other words to be able to function as a positive contributor to society, a giver as opposed to a taker.

I would be interested in seeing how it is that you have arrived at that conclusion? What needs to happen for one to out grow it?

It's the Jungian theory of individuation/integration. The process continues pretty much without limit until one becomes a saint, bodhissatva, Zen master, or otherwise relates to the Universe free from a subject-object division.

Until one becomes a saint??? What does that Mean? Perfect? And if it does not mean perfect what are the benefits of becoming a saint?

Talk about confusing The reason I asked the questions I did is because I found some of what you wrote interesting. If what you have written here is true, How about giving me something helpful, that I can use as opposed to this no ended stuff? I find nothing in your text that has any direct application, that I can use to benefit myself.

You claim you can help people? Well Dr. I have been asking you for help To understand what you are saying.

Although I have accepted my cross dressing, if it is possible to out grow it, or move beyond it with out doing damage. I would take that route in a heart beat.

By the way I disagree with your claim of becoming a saint (as I understand your application.) I already am a Saint. Saints are not perfect. Imperfect people help imperfect people.

I have individually integrated Loretta Ann into Bill and have come out a much better person as a result. I can not see why I should stop an activity that has benefited me so much? I just can not get my head around that. I have been to your web site and I can not find any evidence that you have done the same.

And given your position that cross dressing gets in the way of helping people, have you considered that perhaps the fact that you have not cross dressed for a very long time, and have no plans to entertain that kind activity in the future. Might get in the way of helping people like us?

What I have got from what I have read from you is that although you cross dreesed at one time, implying that you are one of us. There seems to be this other side of you that says you are no longer like us? I find that very confusing.

All the best.

[Virginia]

CJ,
If you ever decide to open your own supprt organization, please give me a call - with what I am having to deal with down here, I have just about had it with our legal system - what a selfish, egocentric, cold, unfeeling, inhuman bunch of hyprocrits we have here!
Sorry for the rant, but I am just feed-up with these, these, legal beagles down here.
Virginia

[CJ]

Hi all,

Virginia,

I guess we shouldn't be too surprised in having to wrestle with "legal beagles" in a dog eat dog world, eh? Seriously, Virginia, I know you're having a rough time down there and my heart goes out to you. Right now, things being what they are, starting my own support organization is but a dream. I know I'd want such an organization to be inclusive, to focus on the mental health of all--regardless of how little or how much they identify with this or that (trans) gender.

Andrea,

I'm a community mental health worker. I meet my clients--people with a severe and persistent mental illness--out in their own community or neighbourhood on a regular basis. Sometimes, I counsel them; sometimes, I advocate for them; and sometimes, I just listen to them. Always, I take an interest in what's happening in their lives. Their struggles are not very different from my own (or from any other human being's).

Now, Ladies, I don't want to throw this fine thread off-course so (like Beauty would say), we now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Love,
CJ

[Danielle La Belle]

"If I was created as a woman or with a feminine side, why does it take the clothes in order for me to meet that need? Why do I need to wear woman’s clothing to feel right in my own skin? Women were not created to wear woman’s clothing. That was decided by man. Clothes were made by man not our creator."

This thread looks like it played out in July 2005. I have been extremely busy this past summer and fall with the hurricanes coming and going and living in central Florida as I do.

I think I get this question. I am not sure what I am about to say makes a great deal of sense.

When we ask why I need to wear these specific clothes to feel like a woman, I get an answer that is rather complicated. In truth, everything happens in the brain. We are pre-programmed to some extent. We begin to "suckle," a reflex action when we are born to insure that we will accept nourishment in a liquid form. So we are programmed during development. How much programming? A great deal. Every child around the world until about age 3, follows similar programming.

Age 3, we clearly are being affected by our external environment. We have adopted clothing and may even show a preference for one item or another. So even at that young age, we notice that Daddy wears one type of clothng and Mommy wears another. I have observed this in my grand-children as each went through this stage.

Think about this. How does the letter [A] on the keyboard become the letter that you see when typing a letter or in the forum window? Think! Unless you are really knowledgeable about both programming and hardware, there is no way you will come up with the correct answer. I will not go into the actual actions that take place for what we have come to think is a simple event. Suffice it to say, there are a very large amount of steps that must take place for just one letter to show up on the screen and it must happen in the correct order each time we type.

Hmmm! Sounds a machine! Yes. But, we have a complex operating system that was pre-programmed during the development cycle in the womb. A [GG] gets dressed just like her counter-part, the male, and goes about her everyday chores in the same manner. Point is, she does not need to think about her sex/gender, it is programmed to be accepted and males do not need to think about this either.

We on the other hand, are trying to be this other person. Trying and being are different. If there is a mistake in our programming the mistake lies in getting us to think that we are something that we are not. So we go about correcting this condition in the only reasonable way that we have been taught about. Clothing difference.

An observation. My spouse does not like me to use starch in her "shirts" ( 7-buttons = shirt, 5 buttons = blouse). I use a light starch in my male business shirts. With a tie, they look taylored and fit well. Without the starch they look loose and wrinkle quickly. My spouse wears her shirts out over her slacks/trousers. She likes a soft light feeling to them.

Why are we attracted to objects that shine such as finished diamonds and gold jewelry. My cat likes the shiny stuff too. Fish go after shiny objects. Programming!

Recently, a major change has started to take place in the magazine trade. No longer do they concern themselves with printing a photo in the right order. Now, often, a woman will appear to be wearing a very feminine male blouse. The buttons are on the wrong side in the photo. They flipped the negative to make the picture fit the layout and are ignoring the age-old gender issues associated with how the blouse buttons. They are saving money and now that seems to be the bottom line. They are doing this will male models as well. I see it everyday and it is now a matter of normal appearance in many business magazines.

Okay. Eventually, our social programming will change in time if they continue with this trend. Time is the answer here. In time, we can change our social programming but our biological programming we are not going to change. It is so complex, it will be one of the last areas of medicine that we conquer and there really is some question as to if we should even attempt such a thing.

Lastly, you have a fem side, but it is not your primary programming. Else you would not talk, walk etc, male. It is secondary programming and for what reason which is up to you, you are trying to bring it into the forefront of your life. After age 5 or so, the brain chemically breaks the bridge to an area where you store permanent habits. After that time, you cannot store any more permanent habits. You try to, but you never really form a habit that can happen without you thinking about it any more. This gives us a fluid like nature to change as we grow.

Sorry that this is so long. Your need to dress fem to feel fem is understandable and it is not a surface thing. Just like how the letter [A] gets on the screen, there is a great deal more going on than most people know about. You just are and that is okay.

I have addressed this by changing my dress code so that I can feel fem and still fit in as male when needed. I have noticed that by doing this everyday, I now feel comfortable and with the changes and do not give them any real thought.

[/url]http://www.myspace.com/danielle_marie_labelle[url]

Hugs

Danielle Marie
[No spell check today]