Articulating the inarticulate

[Absaroka]

Georgia as I remember from the description of this forum it is for CDs and their SOs. So you are a member as much as anyone else.

Aside from that I usually find what the GGs have to say very interesting and thougthful and think that the forums are richer for your participation.

Andrea

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Georgia,

This forum is undoubtedly richer as a result of your participation. I have been following your posts and have been very impressed.

[Beauty]

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Georgia let me also say I'm impressed by your posts and proud to have you as a fellow member.

To answer your question, as teenage boys we didn't sit around and talk about how much we hurt because someone dumped us. Not because we didn't hurt -- believe me we did -- but because boys' (and men's) worlds are very different. Stereotypically a man's world is a hierachial one and doing so would be an admission of weakness -- something that's extremely threatening to most men, and even more so to teenage boys who are all going through insecurities. (BTW, that's why your husband is embarassed about talking about it. Even the most self-accepting of us still know what we do is considered "unmanly.") One reason teenage boys are so obnoxious is they're overcompensating for those insecurities -- the old "best defense is a good offense" thing.

I think for some, their CDing is a reaction against this. Partly it's a chance to "escape" from the masculine rat race, at least for a while, even if one enjoys it. But growing up as boys, manhood is often defined less by what it is and more by what it's not: not feminine and not gay. And so we'd tease the weaker boys about being girls or being gay (long before we had any inkling of what homosexuality was). So if I dislike the manly jockeying with other boys but I still like girls, well that leaves only one option: I must be part girl myself. And so we become one to express those "feminine" aspects of our personalities that we feel we can't express en homme.

Another reason guys don't talk about their feelings is they're literally not in touch with them in the same way. I once saw an article that claimed men lack some of the neurological connections between the emotion-generating parts of the brain to the verbalizing parts (similiar to young girls (and boys) who haven't yet developed the linkage yet). So it's a bit like asking seven-olds why they're feeling the way they are. They just can't do it. Regardless of whether the biological factor is true, because of the socialization factors I mentioned, boys don't grow up analyzing the feelings of themselves and others the way girls do, so we don't have the years of practice to help us. But GGs make a mistake when they think we're not in touch with our feelings -- we are, but it's usually the feelings GGs are least comfortable with (stereotypically): anger, assertiveness, competiveness, etc. Likewise, women are (stereotypically) best at expressing feelings that men are least comfortable with.

Which is why underneath the dress, even us CDs (and even a number of TGs and TSs) don't behave emotionally the same as GGs do. Much as we may feel we have a feminine side, and we may have personality traits that society deems "feminine," we simply weren't raised as women.

Now before I completely hijack the thread, let me get back to the issue of "the other women within." I think the key difference between the resentment an SO might feel about being wrapped up in another hobby is an emotional one. I think you did a great job of elucidating those factors. And maybe one issue with the jealousy is there's no an tangible opponent to fend off. As you said, there's a woman "in there somewhere" but where? And driving her off means driving off your husband, so how does one fight? So one is left in an unresolved loop of feelings.

Anyway thanks again Georgia for letting us see your heart.

[Loretta Ann]

Darla,

That is a very insightful post. There is very little that I would disagree with. Your journalistic skills are serving you well.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Darla,

Between your posts and Georgia's, I, for one, am getting quite an emotional education. Thanks so much, to the both of you (and, of course, to all who participate in this thread--it's quite an eye-opener).

I read Georgia's post and I feel this welling up of, oh I don't know... "big-heartedness" within me. And I find myself noticing, for the umpteenth time, that what often matters most to us--men and women alike--and is closest to our hearts is also what is hardest to put into words.

I read Darla's post and I find myself nodding away like a Bobble-Head puppy. It's a most pleasant experience to see my own unarticulated thoughts so plainly written there, on the screen.

Thanks.

Love,
CJ

[Virginia]

Oh the questions the questions, I try to avoid the questions, but they just keep coming!!! All I want is for Virginia to "roam free!" but the questions!!?? aaaahhhh!!!
Darla wrote:"Partly its a chance to escape from the masculine "rat race" at least for a while....."
FIRST I AGREE WITH CJ AND MY OTHER SISTERS --- SHE EXPRESSES HERSELF --- ADMIRABLY!!!
but.... begs the question and if you choose not to address it and I don't know that any of us have the answer it becomes the "which came first the chicken or the egg!!!!???"
first the term "partly" which means there are other reasons at play here????
Is it because of a strong inner drive to express those feminine characteristics that we all seem to admire, love, graciousness, empathy, gentleness, caring, etc. and somewhere within those emotions something says "well to better understand and to be able to express those emotions, guess I had better put on a dress!"?
OR
were we just sitting around one day "feeling feminine" so to speak and something inside us said "you know to really feel relaxed and more content with yourself - better put on a dress!"?
I know a lot of us can trace this "desire" back to early childhood and that as has been eluded to before "we are just wired that way." Is that the answer? Hell, I have no idea, but somewhere along the way something something said "Hey, lets wear girls clothing!" We had no idea how good it would feel or what changes it would inspire in us, but something caused it - Personally if I could get my hands on that "IT" I would give it a great big sloppy, wet kiss. But that is just me!!!!
Ain't it great to delve into this "gift."
Love it, share it, adore it. We are sooooo fortunate to have it!!!!
Love,
Virginia

[Georgia(SO)]

Thank you all for your kind comments. I feel loved, she said, bowing graciously.

OK. As to the jealousy over the woman within. Darla said,

And maybe one issue with the jealousy is there's no an tangible opponent to fend off. As you said, there's a woman "in there somewhere" but where? And driving her off means driving off your husband, so how does one fight?

Here goes. My guy is in the field this week. I came home from being with him (we work together) to gather up a bunch of stuff we forgot and to do a little research. The plan was for me to go back today, but he's been kind of suggesting that I don't come in until tomorrow. I finished up early enough to leave today and get there this evening, but he is pretty sure he wants me to wait until tomorrow. Now, he's telling me he's worried about my safety and I am very certain that he is. Still, since he often has me drive at night when he's missing me, quite frankly, if this were a normal (oh God, I use that word lightly - no brickbats pls) relationship, I'd be wondering if he was having an affair...

However, I am reasonably sure that what he wants is a night to dress up. Since he does not do this when I'm around, he would get another night to dress to the teeth and do whatever it is he does when he is dressed to the teeth. Now, while I may be ok with it in theory, and I may truly want him to have all that he needs, I also am feeling a bit shoved aside. What else am I going to feel but jealous? This happens a lot to us SOs.

Like tonight...if the circumstances were different, I might well pack up the car and surprise him. Lord knows, he packs up from the field and comes in at 2 am and surprises me sometimes. But I can't, because chances are I'll walk in on him in full regalia and smut surfing and embarrass the hell out of him and feel like I have intruded on some private part of his life. And it triggers jealousy of this *other woman* who is taking him away from me tonight. Of course I know she's not some other woman, in the true sense of the word. But she is distinctly different than him saying "I want some alone time so I can play my guitar."

And because his ex-wife gave him piles of trouble about CDing, if I were to pack up and go surprise him, he would feel that I was checking up on him. So I honor his need for this time alone - time to do things that he's not comfortable doing with me - things he will never be comfortable doing with me because when he's dressed he's attracted to men, not women. I honor his need, but I really don't enjoy it. I feel shoved aside.

No, this won't wreck our relationship because I won't let it. I try very hard to find a similar situation in my life - where I need space. I need space when I need to write, and when I need that space to write, I need it very badly. But again, his need to become her is distinctly different than needing alone time to play a guitar or to write or just to be alone. Maybe it's different because it has sexual overtones. Maybe it's different because a guitar or a pad of paper don't have distinct personalities. Maybe it's different because if you walk in on me while I'm writing, I'm not going to be embarrassed. Maybe its different because my attraction to men doesn't change when I begin to write. (It begs the question which is the chicken or the egg - does he find men attractive when he dresses, or does he dress when he's finding men attractive. His answer was "I can either be a boy or a girl. I can't be both at the same time.")

So, we sit with this moment of me feeling shoved aside for a pair of heels tonight, and him feeling like the only time he can get some time to dress is when I'm away, and me feeling like he really would like for me to stay away a little longer so that he can play with the heels... Now, none of ya'll can solve that for us. We'll work it out in our own way, and after I have slept some and he has dressed some and we're back together tomorrow night, all will be ok. But when an SO says she is jealous of this other woman, chances are good, *this* is what she's jealous of.

Thanks for listening...

-g

[Virginia]

Hi Georgia,
Guess i am back up? Don't mean to hog the thread, but I have to say this and I only speak for myself. When Virginia is dressed and goes out, I really feel no attraction to male or female. Is it selfishness, ego, concern? I am not sure. I just know that Virginia enjoys being out and being Virginia. I try not to flirt, but I will talk to anyone that wants to talk, because I just enjoy hearing what they have to say.
This is just me as I said.
Love to read your input and it is so insightful, thanks sooooo mccuh,
Virginia

[DonnaT]

Hi Georgia, glad I stole you from MHB

Have you ever considered dressing as a man to be with your SO when "she's" around?

It's been done by others, and works for some if they can get into the role play.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Georgia - As Donna said, I'm glad you're here and willing to tackle difficult issues.

Given the sexual overtones of your husband's dressing, I can understand your feelings of jealousy. I don't mean that as a knock against those who's dressing has sexual overtones -- since it does for me at times -- rather it's that many people feel hurt by solo sexual activity by their partner. Likewise, his being attracted to men while en femme I'm sure can probably make you wonder if you're somehow not satisfying him. Of course, the facts of the matter are irrelevant when our fears and insecurities come into play.

Anyway, I'm sorry that you're feeling shoved aside.

Virginia - You're really posing the "why do we do it" question again. I've got some thoughts on the drivers, but that's a lengthy post and it's late, so let me just bite of a piece of that question.

I said "escaping the masculine" is partly responsible, because I think it's only one of a number of pyscho, social and biological factors -- and everyone probably has a different mix of them. I suspect each in itself probably isn't enough to cause one to become a regular CD -- it's estimated a third of men have experimented with it, but only 5-10% are regular dressers. Rather it may be you need enough of these factors to reach critical mass as it were.

To me the problem with terms like "gender dysphoria" is that it's really conflating three separate things.

- Sex identity -- i.e. are you comfortable with the body you're born in? There are those who feel they've got something alien between their legs. I'm not one of them. If I had SRS, there would be no fury as a (wo)man shorn.

Experience with intersex individuals strongly suggests there's biological basis for this (although no conclusive evidence that I'm aware of.) Given that there are "early" and "late" transitioning TSs, it seems logical that there's a spectrum to sex identity discomfort. It may not be any less real for the "lates," but it was weaker enough (compared to the "earlies" that they could be in denial for some time. And it seems reasonable that there are those who have milder degrees of discomfort, who may not feel the need to transition, but feel more comfortable en femme. If I had to guess, I'd speculate this may be more common in the CDs who would like to dress as much as possible (vs. occasional dressers like myself).

- The sense that one's personality doesn't fit well with one's gender role. This is what we're referring to when we talk about having a "feminine" side (or a "masculine" side for FTMs). Studies on personality traits -- which seem to have a definite biological component -- have found that a lot of people don't fit their assigned roles.

One reason for the dearth of FTM CDs is because GGs with "masculine" personalities can take advantage of the broader range of acceptable roles available to GGs. Not that being a masculine woman is necessary easy, but it's a lot easier than being a feminine man. Interestingly, I've heard there are some people who undergo SRS primarily for this reason, although typically they've got some body discomfort as well -- they're willing to trade one "imperfect" body for another that gives far more psychic comfort.

I don't have any firm evidence to support my next assertion, but my sense from various forums and visiting hundreds of personal pages is that there's more CDs from conservative social backgrounds where gender roles are more rigid. In other words, if you've got "feminine" feelings you feel you can't express en homme, you're more likely to "become a woman" to do so. Interestly, in my experience, those who are "fetistic TVs" (to use a commonly understood label) rarely seem to talk about having a feminine side, rather their interests generally focused on the external aspects. Which brings us to....

- Discomfort with the external aspects of one's gender role. This is the part where, yes, it really is just about being able to wear a dress. To look pretty. To be the one pursued instead being the pursuer.

I have noticed (and again this is my subjective opinion) and interesting difference between CDs who start early (ages 5-6) vs. those like myself who start later (ages 10-12). Often the earliers specifically mention a fascination with the sensuousness of the fabrics in GGs' clothes, as well as a frustration that they couldn't wear the pretty things that girls could. Whereas that's mentioned far less but us late-starters, who often mention things more related to the social role -- not being into sports, not being comfortable with being macho, etc.

BTW, transman sociologist Aaron Devor put together a nice description of "levels" of gender dysphoria, which I think illustrates my points. It's for FTMs, but I think you can easily translate it to MTFs. http://web.uvic.ca/~ahdevor/FEMDYS.html The writing is a bit academic, so you can just take a look at Tables 1 & 2 for the summary version.

Devor makes a distinction between "gender identity" and "gender role" discomfort, but I think they're not exactly identical to the three distinctions I've made. If you've got gender role discomfort is it because of the externals (especially in the cause of FTMs where women's social status is factor) vs. being because of internals, i.e. you've got a personality that doesn't mesh well with society's expected role for your gender.

The standard disclaimers: everyone one is different; the boundaries between these three can be blurrier than I've outline; your mileage may vary; void where prohibited....

[CJ]

Hi all,

Darla,

As usual, a very well written post! Thanks for sharing. You bring up many intriguing suggestions which (as you said) may belong more properly to another thread; I'd be interested in pursuing the discussion. For now, though, one thing you said that struck me is your assertion that women have access to a "broader range of acceptable roles." I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Do you mean social roles, here, in North America? in Europe? Most women I know would argue that exactly the opposite is true. Something to ponder, at any rate.

Love,
CJ

[Virginia]

Darla,
Thanks for your insight. I read most of what Arron Devor wrote, and like you said it is "academic," I can see how some of it can apply to either sex, but not all. What I find that it does is give us some insight into how females may or may not accept their "lot in life" if you will. All I can say at this juncture is, it ain't easy for any of us, yet we try and accept it and to understand it and for me anyway that does make it a bit easier. I repeat myself in that I love what Virginia does for me and I have reached that point in "our relationship" that I want to understand where she came from and why she has the influence on me that she does and the big one - where are we going? You all know that I am enjoying my "Magical Mystery Tour" but I still have a desire to know who is taking who and where is it going, it is human nature is it not, to want to know??
Love this thread!
Virginia

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

For now, though, one thing you said that struck me is your assertion that women have access to a "broader range of acceptable roles." I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Do you mean social roles, here, in North America? in Europe? Most women I know would argue that exactly the opposite is true. Something to ponder, at any rate.

I can only speak to the States, since that's what I'm most familar with -- although I'd argue that it's probably generally true of Canadian, European and other Western cultures.

I'm definitely not saying women don't feel gender role pressures. Clearly they do. And who's got it harder? Without living as a woman, I can't really say.

But I think we'd agree that when it comes to dress, GGs have a lot more freedom in what they choose to wear -- the old CD whine about "since GGs can wear pants, why can't I was dresses." GGs can -- and some definitely -- do dress unfemininely, whether by choice, lack of time or energy, or simple ineptitude. But unless they're really butch, they're viewed as unfeminine women not someone who's transgressing gender boundaries. In large part I think that it's because a GG presenting as "male" is a subtractive process, as it were, i.e. no make-up, short hair, less decorative clothing. Whereas as for a man to present as a women, requires additive steps -- adding a wig, make-up, breast-forms, more decorative clothing, etc. So it's inherently a much more conscious activity for men and one reason there's more self-identified male CDs. (Obviously when FTMs start strapping and packing that's an equivalent self-conscious act.)

Likewise, on the emotional plane, I think we'd agree that it's more socially acceptable to be a masculine woman than a feminine man. Which is not to discount the difficulties that assertative/aggressive women face, nor the self-questioning I've seen some very cerebral women go through (i.e. wondering if they're weird because they don't think babies are the cutest thing ever.) But because women still unfortunately are viewed as having a lesser status than men, a masculine woman is viewed as taking on power, whereas a feminine man is disturbing to society because he's relinquishing male priviledge. One example is that fact that tomboys are widely accepted -- even if it's partly because there's an expection that they're go back to their "proper" gender role later -- whereas sissyboys are rarely tolerated by parents, peers and society at large.

In short, if society were more accepting of feminine men, would we still crossdress. Some I'm sure would? But some would be able to satisfy their urges en homme, just as there are tomboyish women who able to dress and behave "masculinely" and still consider themselves "women."

[Virginia]

Darla,
Have a question, hon? I need you to explain your last paragraph as to what is a "feminine man"? and " if society was more accepting of feminine men would we still crossdress?"
I don't think that you are implying that all/any crossdressers are feminine men?!
Just need some further explanation of what you mean!
Virginia