Articulating the inarticulate

[Virginia]

Georgia, first, sorry for the misspelling of your name in a previous post my proof reading leaves something to be desired
Second, but most important I totally agree with CJ, your presence here is God Sent!

Now I do not want to appear to be coopting this thread. As for "appearances" the last time I tried to formulate my opinion on that I was not taken to the wood shed - I was taken behind the wood shed for my corrective behavior implimentation!!! So I ain't going there no more!

I can only speak for my self in that when I dress and go out, for example I am going to "our" local club, by myself, Friday evening, mainly to give them the information that I promised concering the November 20th "Transgendered Day of Rememberance." I will dress in my MY way, "conservatively sexy!" Most of the GG's - well, all of the GG's that show up are in jeans and sweatshirts - yes probably 99% of them are lesbian and here I am in a short skirt, blouse and I guess I will wear my heelded boots (don't know how cold it will be). Anyway if you will allow me to try and divorce myself from myself. If you look at my avatar, Virginia is (in my opinion) a pretty woman and that is how I look when I go out. Actually, I don't know exactly how to dress down so to speak. I have to, for my own sake/sanity, try and appear as nice looking as possible. Yes, everything is "fake", good, bad, or indifferent! I have got to be honest and they say it ain't braggin if you can do it! Virginia is the best looking broad in the place, usually! I know I get read by everyone, first because I am by myself, in a club primarily for gays and lesbians - Hello??!!! It does not bother me in the least because I know I look nice, I treat everyone I have contact with nice, no one bothers me, well a couple of guys hit on me thinking I am something other than a crossdresser, but after we talk a few minutes they move on and we are both the better for the experience - no harm no foul! (No lesbians have hit on me ---yet? )
A brief aside: Loretta, I do wear fake nails, not real long, but I do that only to give my fingers the appearance of being a little more slender than they probably are and that so that (my one vice) I love to wear my rings.
I guess my point is we probably all have different "ways" of approaching the actual act of crossdressing, not the mental/psychological aspect but the physical act and my approach is I will look nice, not over-dress, but if a GG were with me or wanted to talk to me she would not feel the least bit embarrassed by my appearance, i.e., a "hooker" or OR NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE - BUT I try not to look like the "proverbial" "guy in a dress." I think more of my sisters than that and it is my heart felt attempt to emulate women as how I feel they are - not should look or do look, but how I feel about them - strong, yet sexy. I hope I have not offended anyone that was not my goal and I hope those that read this far have some understanding of where I am coming from.
Love you all,
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Awesome CJ absolutely awesome!! I wish we could stand on the proverbial mountain and shout it to the world

It is my heart felt attempt to emulate women as how I feel they are - not should look or do look, but how I feel about them - strong, yet sexy.

Well Sis,

As you stand upon your proverbial mountain shouting it out to the chorus here, keep in mind that you are attempting to sell a package that not everyone agrees with even amongst ourselves.

Now I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. What I am saying is that the package you are attempting to sell does not match up with the package that society would be more likely to accept, as I believe Georgia so patiently is trying to show us.

The image you are attempting to sell is of your own creation, and not representative of the reality of those you are attempting to convince.

Again I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. only that it needs to be acknowledged. Some time ago you passed good enough for a woman to refer to you as a slut. This may be the kind of thing Georgia is drawing attention to.

When one enters the world of women there appears to be a whole different set of rules by which one plays, of which most men may be ignorant.

Also nothing I have said here should be taken to mean that I agree or disagree with the way you choose to present yourself enfemm.

[Georgia(SO)]

Loretta Ann wrote

When one enters the world of women there appears to be a whole different set of rules by which one plays, of which most men may be ignorant.

ROTFL!

And to all the rest of ya'll, thanks for making me feel so welcome. The truth is that CJ is right - it really doesn't matter how Society feels about you or how Society feels about me. It matters how you and I feel about ourselves - how the people in our individual orbits feel about us individually.

I happen to love socio-cultural and anthropological analysis and can get myself wound up in the abstract. But every society, every culture, every group of human beings is composed of individuals trying to get through their days on earth sane and all in one piece.

As a historian, I continually preach that history is made up of people who were busy living their lives in the time and space in which their lives happened. Me too...

-g(so)

[Absaroka]

I suppose I am repeating myself but Georgia I like your posts. And you are right about your perspective being different and thus valuable.

Here's a thought. Perhaps we will have really gotten to a feminine place when we deeply feel we don't want to be bothered with the nails, makeup, heels and so on and just want to run out to the store without any preparation. Girls jeans and shirt with the all important social cue of some sort of fake breasts. Or maybe not. Still sort of pulled together since so many women seem to feel they need to be presentable, but tres casual and wanting not to bother with anything else.

Of course we are less likely to pass. But isn't in a way that a feminine thing anyway-to always have our appearance being judged and to be too tired to deal with it?

I guess this is in opposition to a lot of cross dressing but I would be interested in how much of this happens with folks who have transitioned.

Andrea

[Virginia]

Hi Andrea,
Hon, kinda lost me with the "we deeply feel (?we?) don't want to be bothered with the nails .........." I am assuming that the "we" is us'en's, i.e. crossdressers??? You could be correct, but this girl has not reached the point were she "does not want to be bothered." I have to admit perhaps around the house I may be a bit lax in my appearance, but when I go out....... I still see myself as our ambassador and I have and hopefully will forever have the desire to look as nice as I can.
For Georgia: I have heard it said that "women don't dress for men but for other women." If that it the case then what Andrea has said my be true. With all the "pressures" we are all under, males and females, the time necessary to, how do I say this? "dress the part?!" i.e., for GG's to take the time to fix there hair, put on make-up, nails, etc. It would appear that yes, it is not a priority any longer, which is fine. Far be it from me to question how GG's choose to go from point A to point B in a given time span.
As a side line: you know where I have seen the most "dressed" GG's lately? I mean in skirts, heels, etc.? Staples and Office Depot! Interesting!
This is a great thread!
Virginia

[Georgia(SO)]

Virginia -

I've heard that women dress for women too. And if I were being honest, I would say that much of the time that is true... it is the women who make the unspoken rules about what women will wear. And frankly, I never heard of a man being horrified because some woman appeared at their party dressed inappropriately. So, yes, that old saw probably is true to some extent.

I am of mixed emotions to hear that the majority of the women wearing dresses now are seen in office supply stores. On the one hand, it means that we have finally gotten over the silly notion that to be taken seriously as a woman I need to dress like a man. Gack. Women's power suits were a ridiculous way to promote equality in the work place. OTOH, if those women are seen in office supply stores, chances are it means that they are still secretaries (by any other name...). Executives don't usually shop for their own paper clips.

Ok. I have to work today...see ya'll on the flip side...
-g

[Loretta Ann]

It really doesn't matter how Society feels about you or how Society feels about me. It matters how you and I feel about ourselves - how the people in our individual orbits feel about us individually.

You know Georgia that is something I have believed (for me) for a long time. In fact I believe it is CJ who has posted things that would challenge some of what I written about that.

However that simply is not true for some of us. We have post after post here of those who are concerned about how their bosses, their friends, their children, and on and on, would react (feel) about the reality that they are a cross-dresser. And how that would affect their lives.

In fact I have been one that has posted on far more than one occasion that if the worst would happen in circumstances like that, it need not be the end of good things. In fact I have encouraged it in certain situations.

I could be wrong but I have taken your response here as a demonstration of one of the rules that at least certain women play by. And I am not ignorant of the reasons they choose to resort to this kind of thing.

I am not negatively affected by what you wrote, (in fact I quite enjoy it) and I still am able to sincerely wish you all of the best.

What goes on in ones interior life determines how one feels about themselves.

[Absaroka]

Loretta Ann I am wondering which of Georgia's posts reflected which rule. I have no doubt you are right but I am wondering about the specifics.

Virginia you got it pretty much right. When we, crossdressers, react the way my wife does. When she views picking out what to wear tomorrow morning to work as a chore, not a delightful opportunity. When she tells me how lucky I am not to HAVE TO wear a bra and pantyhose. When she decides that since we will be going out with friends there is no need to wear makeup. And yet she is quite attractive and I think cute in the way she dresses. But the key concept for her is convenience and comfort.

So yes, when those of us who wish to emulate women have achieved our goal, we will PERHAPS be too tired to look nice because our energy will have been expended in taking care of others, unless we are too insecure about ourselves to let go of society judging us by our clothes and thus feel we have to be pretty all the time.

Take it all with a whole shaker full of salt, since I don't venture off of my own property fully dressed and don't interact in the f2f world with anyone openly dressed. And I can't speak for women, just repeat what they tell me.

Andrea

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Andrea,

Loretta Ann I am wondering which of Georgia's posts reflected which rule. I have no doubt you are right but I am wondering about the specifics.

I am sorry but it is enough that Georgia knows what it is that I have spoken of. To answer your question may cause her additional pain and/or embarrassment, that I have no intention of inflicting upon her.

I will only say that it is a very suttle tool (or rule) that certain women like to try to use. It is a tool that when effective gives them power over their victims. Only those whose interior life is strong enough will be able to avoid the snare.

[Virginia]

Loretta, honey, I know I am preaching to the choir so to speak in expanding on what you have said and I also know there are those here who can address it far better than I (CJ, Sally, Dr. Anderson) but for our newer sisters who may not have had the time or opportunity to catch up or are struggleing with this. Please, it is my interpretation of the "DSM -IV - TR" that if we as crossdressers are comfortable with our "plight = GIFT" then the American Psychiatric Association says we don't really have a problem, but............. if we are concerned - to overly concerned about "being caught" or outted or that someone influential in our lives should find out about us, then we can pay them, the APA, the big bucks to help us deal with this aspect of our lives.
We are not in need of padded rooms or drug induced comas or electric shock treatment, in fact I am (as you are well aware) of the opinion that we do have a wonderful GIFT and need to learn all we can about it, develop it and then share it with everyone! I can personally assure you it is well worth the investment!
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

I am (as you are well aware) of the opinion that we do have a wonderful GIFT and need to learn all we can about it, develop it and then share it with everyone!

Well good luck with that sharing it with everyone Sis. That is one part of your package that I do not support. Sorry about that hon, wish I could, but it is not part of my interior life.

So when you are out and about blazing that trail; first of all have fun enjoy it, but keep in mind that I am unable to authorize you as a messenger or representative of where I am going with my gift, and I will not be benefiting from your efforts.

My ambassador has blazed quite a different trail that I wish to take advantage of. Thanks anyway honey.

[Virginia]

You have got to know what I mean by "sharing my gift?" Even when I am en drab, I have become a lot less hostile. I try and listen to people when they talk to me, to actually physically touch them if I feel it is necessary to make them feel recognized and appreciated or to let them know I really care about them and their problem(s). I am a lot calmer and will go out of my way to help someone with even the slightest things. It is becoming so natural to me that I do it now without even thnkg about it. Smiling at people sincerely asking how they are and actually listening to their reply. This is what I mean by sharing the "gift." Actually I seem to get more opportunity "en drab" than I do dressed, but either way that is what Virginia gives me and I will share it more and more!
Love,
Virginia

[Loretta Ann]

Well thanks for explaining that Sis. I do not see that as a gift I see that as a by product of a gift. The fruit of the gift if you will.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

OK, I somehow unsub'd myself from getting update notices, so I'm catching up

1. Percentage of men who cross-dress. I have no hard facts to back this up, but my guess is that the number of men who actually don the clothes, who actually acknowledge (if only to themselves), is a fairly small percentage of those who think about it. I may be dipping into stereotypes, but it seems that the men who do CD are often fairly high powered, high *manly men* type souls who are willing to live some of the life on the edge. (Think the army guys, Hoover, the macho types that no one would ever guess have a closet full of dresses.) It occurs to me that the incidence of actually putting the clothes on is more related to whether that person has a daring personality.

I've heard the figure that an estimate 5% of men are regular crossdressers and 30% experiment with it at some point, including socially-sanctions like Halloween. (Costume shopping I ran across at least a dozen female costumes clearly intended for men.) But I've never seen a source to back that up.

You do raise a really interesting point though. It does take balls to be crossdresser, especially one who goes out in public. (Apologies to anyone who might be offended by the language, but it seemed apt.)

To Kathy's comment about being an introvert, I don't think courage requires being a stereotypical risk taker. It's true there are a lot men's men among our ranks, but I think there's also other reasons for that. I've talked to a lot them who consciously "butched" up in an effort to "cure" their transgenderism. In other cases, it seems like they grew up in macho cultures but had personalities that didn't quite fit. But since the culture tended to have rigid gender roles, instead of being able to express their softer side en homme, they ended up going en femme to do so. And for high-powered types, it's nice to escape into a state where the biggest decision to make is whether the bag matches the shoes.

Or why I think that while we talk about our expressing feminine side, (for CDs like me at least) it's often more about being "not manly" than being "feminine."

I realize that ya'll don't feel like you are faking it when you dress, and that dressing expresses an inner woman, but to the rest of the non-TGd world, it *does* look like you are faking it.

Possibly. Although when I lived in LA, fake boobs and fake nails were the norm. (A local sports talk radio station once had a great billboard that showed a women's chest with the caption: "Fake right, fake left." Tres LA...) But I think it has more to do with transgressing gender boundaries. Aaron Devor once studied women who were so masculine that they were often mistaken for men. Like CDs they often had difficulties using public restroom -- the other women would freak out, even when the women tried to explain that yes, they were women. CDs are probably even more troubling because they're taking on what society still (unfortunately) perceives as an inferior status.

I can't really buy into the argument that strict social rules for each gender *cause* CDing. If that were true, you would have had a huge number of FTM CDers in previous eras. (Ok, yes some women CDed in order to fight in wars, etc., etc.., but that's not what I'm talking about.)

I don't think that itself causes CDing, but I think it's one of a number of factors that can contribute to achieving critical mass as it were.

From what I've read FTM CDing actually was somewhat common historically, but it was tied up in issues of status (i.e. being able to move out into the world) that MTF CDing isn't.

Further, in societies such as the antebellum south, men were able to embrace a number of cultural nuances that we now consider to be somewhat unmanly - high interest in literature, art, philosophy, etc., etc. (Think Ashley in Gone With the Wind). Men's clothes were ruffled, with jewelry and all that, but there were still CDers.

Not saying that there weren't but I'd argue that "borderline" cases might have been less inclined to CD is they could fulfill their "feminine" needs en homme. I can only speak for myself, but had I been able to do an Eddie Izzard kind of appearance and it had been cooler to be a sensitive guy, it's possible I never would've become a CD.

I agree the drives for CDing is probably internally driven, but how society accomodates those drives makes a big difference. It's the difference between being a square peg trying to fit into a round hole and fitting into a square(-ish) hole.

Standard disclaimer: those who feel they were born in the wrong body are obviously a very different matter.

[Virginia]

Darla,
I am considering your comment about what it takes, shall I define it as "intestinal fortutude" to dress and go out in public. I think it is an area that seeks research. If "we" were born with this gift and according to the "powers that be!" " Once a crsoddresser always a crossdresser." Does that not lend to a comparison of basic human needs, food, clothing, shelter or the "fight or flight" scenerio? PLease understand that I am just asking - I do not know - but do not even our "closeted sisters" have an inate desire to go out in public regardless of how they may think they may appear? The desire is there, it would appear to be ingrained but it is up to the individual to act upon it, just like the desire for the preservation of the species, i.e., women's "biological clock." The need/desire is there but not all "heed the calling."
Perhaps the 'desire/need" is just stronger in some than others?????? I don't know. I will have to really considre how I felt the first, second, third, and so on even until last Saturday night, how or what drove me to venture out. I wonder if it is some inate desire or those two swinging appendages between my legs - I would tend to feel it is the inate desire for expression of me/Virginia. Really an interesting topic. Then agian you know me - I am who I am and I love Virginia and on the Magical Mystery Tour we will continue - loving every minute of it!
Love ya,
Virginia