This has become a regular topic of discussion when I have conversations about cross dressing with friends who do not know I am a CD. Are women crossdressers
It is my belief that the concept of crossdressing comes from the dressing in clothing traditionally intended for the opposit sex. If everyone dressed in unisex attire, there would be no crossdressers. Ergo, with this being the situation, most women are crossdressers, and are very public about it, every time they wear jeans t-shirts, and other clothing, which until the past few decades has traditionally been male attire.
Certainly the argument can be made that they feminize the attire, and claim it is not crossdressing. In doing this, does it not follow that a man wearing a masculinized dress is a normal person, and not a crossdressser?
Personally, I think women hold a clear double standard in this matter. It is about time that we girls take a stand on this issue and hold women to the fire for their evident hypocracy
Shally
Women as cross dressers
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Shalindra
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LeftyRainbow(SO)
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Dressing a bit masculine for a women and dressing a bit feminine for a male does not necessarily make someone a crossdresser. It's more how the person feels when they are dressed in the opposite gender's garb that may help determine their reasoning for enjoyment and clothing of choice.
There is a thing called "Kinging" which I believe to be the GG equivalent of crossdressing.
If you do a search on the subject and read the articles ,and view the pictures, you will have no doubt that these women are going out on a limb by dressing up as the opposite gender.
Sometimes it may even be fatal.
Remember the film "Boys Don't Cry"?
Does anyone remember that attempted "reality show" that A & E produced where four people lived in a house (two girls and two boys) and they lived as the opposite gender for the whole time they were there.
Well, if you saw it you would remember that the one person who couldn't handle things (because they discovered too much about themselves ) was one of the GG's.
It left the veiwer quite uncomfortable as it sent this particular woman into inner turmoil so much so that she couldn't finish the show.
I'd have to say that it is not as easy or as accepted by society as you think .
There is a thing called "Kinging" which I believe to be the GG equivalent of crossdressing.
If you do a search on the subject and read the articles ,and view the pictures, you will have no doubt that these women are going out on a limb by dressing up as the opposite gender.
Sometimes it may even be fatal.
Remember the film "Boys Don't Cry"?
Does anyone remember that attempted "reality show" that A & E produced where four people lived in a house (two girls and two boys) and they lived as the opposite gender for the whole time they were there.
Well, if you saw it you would remember that the one person who couldn't handle things (because they discovered too much about themselves ) was one of the GG's.
It left the veiwer quite uncomfortable as it sent this particular woman into inner turmoil so much so that she couldn't finish the show.
I'd have to say that it is not as easy or as accepted by society as you think .
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Carolynn
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I agree Lefty. I was thinking about some GGs I know that often mix elements of male wardrobe with their clothes, but then it is style, not crossdressing. How they wear the clothes is definitely an enhancement to their femininity, not a masking in any sense. Maybe about the closest among males to this sense of style might be the people on the forum who have spoken of mixing male and female clothes in a "androgynous" style? 
"It’s not given to anyone to have no regrets; only to decide, through the choices we make, which regrets we’ll have,"
David Weber – In Fury Born
David Weber – In Fury Born
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LeftyRainbow(SO)
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I agree with you Carolyn.
In the eighties , it was quite acceptable for males to go around incredibly
well decorated emulating musicians from glam rock to Boy George style to Heavy Metal bands like Twisted Sister.
No one would consider them crossdressers for imitating style.
Likewise, my SO dresses in women's plus size jeans everyday and if you tell him that it's masculine you may break his little heart but regardless my SO is still a TG because of the way my SO feels inside not because of the clothes that he wears.
I hope I have not offended anyone with my opinions, that's all they are
food for thought
!
In the eighties , it was quite acceptable for males to go around incredibly
well decorated emulating musicians from glam rock to Boy George style to Heavy Metal bands like Twisted Sister.
No one would consider them crossdressers for imitating style.
Likewise, my SO dresses in women's plus size jeans everyday and if you tell him that it's masculine you may break his little heart but regardless my SO is still a TG because of the way my SO feels inside not because of the clothes that he wears.
I hope I have not offended anyone with my opinions, that's all they are
food for thought
!-
Beauty
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Hi,
Yes women crossdress, but not to the extreme that we do. There's no need to start a revolution.](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall")
However, women crossdressers are not the same as women who wear femme jeans and femme clothing that resembles men's clothing.
I know women crossdressers and they do not wear any femme men's clothing. They wear men's jeans from men stores and men's shirts and shoes. They sometimes get ridiculed or stared at and often get referred to as men. (sound familiar)
Hopefully this thread will stay strong emotion free, though it started of with a big bang!
Beauty
Yes women crossdress, but not to the extreme that we do. There's no need to start a revolution.
However, women crossdressers are not the same as women who wear femme jeans and femme clothing that resembles men's clothing.
I know women crossdressers and they do not wear any femme men's clothing. They wear men's jeans from men stores and men's shirts and shoes. They sometimes get ridiculed or stared at and often get referred to as men. (sound familiar)
Hopefully this thread will stay strong emotion free, though it started of with a big bang!
Beauty
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Alexandra
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Re: Women as cross dressers
First of all, the "traditional clothing" agrument is weak because what "consistutes" as "traditional clothing" for men or women is subject to too many possible interpretations. For instance, Musilm men wear female-like grab? Are most of these men CDs? How about the skirt some scottish men were. There are just too many variances and loopholes for Shally's theory to make sense, besides . . .
But there would be CDs trying to look like a female by stuffing their bras, padding their butts, growing their hair long, et al. If they are not crossdressers because they wear unisex clothes, then what are they?Shalindra wrote:If everyone dressed in unisex attire, there would be no crossdressers.
Alexandra
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CJ
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Hi all,
I don't think that women are crossdressers in the same sense that many men are. The double standard Shally and Charlene refer to stems, I think, from a confusion regarding clothing as one of the many signs pointing to gender in a given cultural context. That context matters. As Alexandra pointed out, Arab and Scottish men aren't crossdressers because they wear flowing robes and skirt-like garments--they do so because that's the type of clothing men wear in their culture.
Generally, in our own culture, when a woman wears men's clothing, she's not trying to invite those around her to see her as a man (unless she's a drag king, as Lefty mentioned); on the other hand, men who wear woman's clothing are usually (and it's a big usually) seeking to have themselves identified as women. Clothing only makes the man (or woman) if there's an accompanying desire to pass as the other gender. For that reason, I don't usually consider myself crossdressed when I wear women's slacks and blouses (something I often do) even though I am a crossdresser. I would consider a woman a crossdresser only if she sported some sort of facial hair along with men's jeans and shirts. See the pic of performer Dante DiFranco below--now she is a crossdresser! (Whether or not she is also one away from the stage, I don't know.)
As Lefty said, men were "allowed" to be much more colourful in the entertainment culture of the 80s. Similarly, there are many places in the world where that still holds true. Moreover, taking a cue from the animal kingdom, where the male of the species is usually more flamboyant in its visual displays than the female, many crossdressing men in our own culture long for the opportunity, it seems, to leave behind the colourless suit-and-tie uniform imposed on them by the social conventions relating to gender. Our way of dressing isn't called "drab" for nothing.
Many women (including Helen Boyd, author of My Husband Betty, for whom I know this is a sore point), are sometimes frustrated by the inability of men--particularly crossdressing men--to see how much of a double standard women also labour under when it comes to clothing. If a woman doesn't (or won't) dress in what people (usually, men) consider a feminine manner, their femininity is thereby impugned. Kathy, out of Toronto, has also mentioned this in another forum.
I think the truth is, women sometimes wear men's clothing as an extension of the practical function of any article of clothing--comfort in style. Most women I know aren't crossdressers; they'd still much prefer to wear jeans and loose shirts or Ts when engaged in casual activities. I haven't seen many soccer moms in heels and dresses. They know that the clothing isn't necessarily an expression of their gender alignment (contrary to Dante DiFranco and others like her--rare as they are outside the entertainment industry). Crossdressing men, on the other hand, would gladly sacrifice comfort (corsets, girdles, high heels, tight skirts anyone?) if it means that their appearance and presentation has others identify them as women... their perceived, more or less true, gender identity.
I know the double standard we're talking about here is the fact that our clothing is available to women, in addition to their own, while the opposite isn't the case. And, there, I will agree there's a double standard. However, I don't think it's one that has so much to do with crossdressing as it does with the mere vagaries of social customs and fashion trends. Back in the Rococo era (in Mozart's time), men wore high heels, silk stockings, sensuous fabrics, wigs, and makeup, but they did so as men, not as women or crossdressers. It could be that we're just in an unenviable fashion swing of the pendulum right now. Things might change at some point. Hopefully.
Love,
CJ
http://www.dantedifranco.com/Dante43.jpg
I don't think that women are crossdressers in the same sense that many men are. The double standard Shally and Charlene refer to stems, I think, from a confusion regarding clothing as one of the many signs pointing to gender in a given cultural context. That context matters. As Alexandra pointed out, Arab and Scottish men aren't crossdressers because they wear flowing robes and skirt-like garments--they do so because that's the type of clothing men wear in their culture.
Generally, in our own culture, when a woman wears men's clothing, she's not trying to invite those around her to see her as a man (unless she's a drag king, as Lefty mentioned); on the other hand, men who wear woman's clothing are usually (and it's a big usually) seeking to have themselves identified as women. Clothing only makes the man (or woman) if there's an accompanying desire to pass as the other gender. For that reason, I don't usually consider myself crossdressed when I wear women's slacks and blouses (something I often do) even though I am a crossdresser. I would consider a woman a crossdresser only if she sported some sort of facial hair along with men's jeans and shirts. See the pic of performer Dante DiFranco below--now she is a crossdresser! (Whether or not she is also one away from the stage, I don't know.)
As Lefty said, men were "allowed" to be much more colourful in the entertainment culture of the 80s. Similarly, there are many places in the world where that still holds true. Moreover, taking a cue from the animal kingdom, where the male of the species is usually more flamboyant in its visual displays than the female, many crossdressing men in our own culture long for the opportunity, it seems, to leave behind the colourless suit-and-tie uniform imposed on them by the social conventions relating to gender. Our way of dressing isn't called "drab" for nothing.
Many women (including Helen Boyd, author of My Husband Betty, for whom I know this is a sore point), are sometimes frustrated by the inability of men--particularly crossdressing men--to see how much of a double standard women also labour under when it comes to clothing. If a woman doesn't (or won't) dress in what people (usually, men) consider a feminine manner, their femininity is thereby impugned. Kathy, out of Toronto, has also mentioned this in another forum.
I think the truth is, women sometimes wear men's clothing as an extension of the practical function of any article of clothing--comfort in style. Most women I know aren't crossdressers; they'd still much prefer to wear jeans and loose shirts or Ts when engaged in casual activities. I haven't seen many soccer moms in heels and dresses. They know that the clothing isn't necessarily an expression of their gender alignment (contrary to Dante DiFranco and others like her--rare as they are outside the entertainment industry). Crossdressing men, on the other hand, would gladly sacrifice comfort (corsets, girdles, high heels, tight skirts anyone?) if it means that their appearance and presentation has others identify them as women... their perceived, more or less true, gender identity.
I know the double standard we're talking about here is the fact that our clothing is available to women, in addition to their own, while the opposite isn't the case. And, there, I will agree there's a double standard. However, I don't think it's one that has so much to do with crossdressing as it does with the mere vagaries of social customs and fashion trends. Back in the Rococo era (in Mozart's time), men wore high heels, silk stockings, sensuous fabrics, wigs, and makeup, but they did so as men, not as women or crossdressers. It could be that we're just in an unenviable fashion swing of the pendulum right now. Things might change at some point. Hopefully.
Love,
CJ
http://www.dantedifranco.com/Dante43.jpg
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Sara
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As usual, Christina has made the case clearly.
While I have long believed and argued here and elsewhere that a large part of the crossdressing issue relates to the cultural inequality between men and women (women emulating men=good, men emulating women=bad), Christina is right--women seek comfort in jeans and tees, not any sort of gender crossing. Most expect to be seen as women in jeans and tees. Beyond George Sand pushing the edges more than a century ago, there's no confusion.
Male CDs, across a wide spectrum of emotional drives, want to be perceived as women, or at the least, womanly. Women wear slacks for comfort, men wear dresses for a different sort of comfort. Here's the thing: if the culture demanded androgynous clothing--everyone dresses the same, women might resent it, but adapt, but CDs like us would still seek a way to feminize our atire. Why, I don't know exactly, other than the potency of a particularly potent X chromosome overwhelming our befuddled and aptly named, Y.
Sara
While I have long believed and argued here and elsewhere that a large part of the crossdressing issue relates to the cultural inequality between men and women (women emulating men=good, men emulating women=bad), Christina is right--women seek comfort in jeans and tees, not any sort of gender crossing. Most expect to be seen as women in jeans and tees. Beyond George Sand pushing the edges more than a century ago, there's no confusion.
Male CDs, across a wide spectrum of emotional drives, want to be perceived as women, or at the least, womanly. Women wear slacks for comfort, men wear dresses for a different sort of comfort. Here's the thing: if the culture demanded androgynous clothing--everyone dresses the same, women might resent it, but adapt, but CDs like us would still seek a way to feminize our atire. Why, I don't know exactly, other than the potency of a particularly potent X chromosome overwhelming our befuddled and aptly named, Y.
Sara
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CJ
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LeftyRainbow(SO)
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Ladies,
I'm sorry but I thought this forum was for both GG's and CD's.
I have been nothing but supportive of ALL transgendered people including Males and Females.
I do not make a practice of bashing genetic males.
I can not help but to feel negative energy against genetic women in this thread.
As a genetic women ,I am personally insulted.
NO ONE in this forum can speak for all genetic women on this subject.
Every women, like every human being that they are, has different opinions about clothes.
Just like every genetic male does...
Just like every trans genderist does.... both male and female born.
I am interested in others people's opinions in this forum.
I am not interested in the negative energy.
Wishing everyone inner peace for the holidays....
Lefty
I'm sorry but I thought this forum was for both GG's and CD's.
I have been nothing but supportive of ALL transgendered people including Males and Females.
I do not make a practice of bashing genetic males.
I can not help but to feel negative energy against genetic women in this thread.
As a genetic women ,I am personally insulted.
NO ONE in this forum can speak for all genetic women on this subject.
Every women, like every human being that they are, has different opinions about clothes.
Just like every genetic male does...
Just like every trans genderist does.... both male and female born.
I am interested in others people's opinions in this forum.
I am not interested in the negative energy.
Wishing everyone inner peace for the holidays....
Lefty
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Shannon
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Okay.... Time for me to chime in on this one....
I really think I understand what Shalindra was getting at with this post, but I also have heard it from Sharon(SO) and now I see it from LeftyRainbow(SO).... this is coming across as an insult to women....
I will not allow that to happen on this forum. I will not allow ANYBODY to be insulted on this forum......
I truly feel Shalindra did not mean this as an insult, but it is coming across that way, so I am very glad our Moderator has locked this and this will be the last post in here. (Unless Sharon unlocks it too....)
I personally apologize to anybody who was offended by this....
I really think I understand what Shalindra was getting at with this post, but I also have heard it from Sharon(SO) and now I see it from LeftyRainbow(SO).... this is coming across as an insult to women....
I will not allow that to happen on this forum. I will not allow ANYBODY to be insulted on this forum......
I truly feel Shalindra did not mean this as an insult, but it is coming across that way, so I am very glad our Moderator has locked this and this will be the last post in here. (Unless Sharon unlocks it too....)
I personally apologize to anybody who was offended by this....
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Shalindra
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I am so sorry
I had never intended this much commotion over this question. 
My statement was not meant to be bashing of GG's.
I apologize for my question, and ask for your forgiveness.
Shally
My statement was not meant to be bashing of GG's. I apologize for my question, and ask for your forgiveness.
Shally -
Alexandra
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ahem . . . I spotted the door open here . . . so I thought I'd do a bit of peace making . . .
the civilized way to make a convincing point is to present clear, conclusive and replicable evidence along with it. The evidence alone would speak louder than any hype or rhectoric that came before or after.
Even "authorities" have to present their evidence, because without evidence, anything that follows "I think" is meaningless whether it was uttered by an "expert" or layman.
(any kind of bashing, even with clear evidence, voids the point one is making for that entire thread.)
I suppose what I'm asking now is this: show me the research evidence from a scholarly journal or publication that supports the statement "women are holding a clear double standard". If it is as "clear" as stated, one should have no problem coming up with something. If one can't come up with anything, then the statement HAS TO be regarded as false.
Thank you for your understanding.
the civilized way to make a convincing point is to present clear, conclusive and replicable evidence along with it. The evidence alone would speak louder than any hype or rhectoric that came before or after.
Even "authorities" have to present their evidence, because without evidence, anything that follows "I think" is meaningless whether it was uttered by an "expert" or layman.
(any kind of bashing, even with clear evidence, voids the point one is making for that entire thread.)
I suppose what I'm asking now is this: show me the research evidence from a scholarly journal or publication that supports the statement "women are holding a clear double standard". If it is as "clear" as stated, one should have no problem coming up with something. If one can't come up with anything, then the statement HAS TO be regarded as false.
Thank you for your understanding.
Alexandra
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Beauty
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