There have been several threads lately about support of vaying degrees from SOs who still find it neccesary to draw some sort of line. Part of the subtext always seems to be that they just don't understand our need to dress.
I want to be clear here that I am talking about crossdressing and not trans sexualism. Folks here who feel they are in the wrong body, for whom living as a woman is something they would seriously consider or are doing, are something outside of what I am talking about here although there may be some common themes. But I think it is something that goes far deeper into the core of who they are than this does for me.
My thought is why should GGs be expected to understand crossdressing in the first place? We talk all the time about how for women to wear mens clothing is societally acceptable. Part of the reason for this is that so many of the societal messages about clothing for men vs women are so different. And the message women get about women's clothing is undoubtably very different than the message men get about women's clothing.
For me crossdressing is about being a heterosexual male. What woman can understand what it is like to be a heterosexual male? Yes I know that I am one of the leading voices here in the "we're all the same in our humanity and uniqueness" school of thought but in our and most societies there are differences and always have been even though they are often not the same differences. And sure I talk here a lot about intergrating the male and female side of my personas but I deeply believe that my persona can transcend my clothing and I can express whatever feminine (for lack of a better word, I don't really like how undefined that term is) side independently of my clothing. And I think most women can understand that since many struggle with similar stuff. So many women are always talking about how they like sensitive men and how they like men who can accept their assertive (masculine?) side.
There are probably about a million things that I will never understand about what it is like to be a woman. Likewise there are so many things women may not understand about what it is to be a man. If they have brothers they are close to as children or lots of male friends they may empathically understand more common issues but crossdressing is such a secret thing that how many women get to be close friends with a lot of different cross dressers, enough to sort out crossdressing from the idiosyncrasies of any one person? How many of us even get to do that?
The key here is acceptance I think. There are some things about me that my wife will never understand. Far more importantly however, the biggies are things that she has accepted even though at a gut level they just don't make sense to her. I like to think I have done the same in return although I think she has probably done a better job.
Very few of these things, if any, however have the potential impact on how others would percieve her just by dint of her being married to me that crossdressing would. And very few (probably none) are as popularly misconcieved by the general population.
She's actually a pretty accepting person. She knows and likes a few crossdressers although not well. Problem is that they are all homosexual drag queens. Not at all the sort of person she wants to be married to but still the person most visible in our community. So somehow a first step in my even telling her about more of this than I already have (something I liked as a child, and how much I like seeing her dressed up) is education.
In the meantime lets all be grateful for all the SO's who are doing the best they can with what for many of them was something of a surprise.
Andrea
why do so few GG's understand us
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
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Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3344
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
why do so few GG's understand us
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
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Amelie-Laveau
- Permanently Banned
- Posts: 629
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:20 pm
I would say that it would also make a difference if the straight Cd picked a woman who was also on what I can only describe as “on the alternative side of life”. If they picked a woman, right from the start who had a more open minded approach to life, then maybe there wouldn’t be too much trouble later on in the relationship.
I can only go by what I read in the CD forums that I am on, so, I am not an expert on women or marriage. Also, I understand that a lot of Cds got married years ago when things were more difficult for Cds. But, from what I read in these forums is that quite a few Cds would like a girl who is more on the conservative style of dress and attitude. Also because most of the Cds that I see on these forums also seem to have this idea as a way of life. I guess this girl can be described as a nice girl, a family raising girl. But these types of girls are not the most tolerant to the CD lifestyle, whether the CD is in the closet or out and about. When a CD marries these kinds of girls, they have to accept that it will interfere with their dressing, especially if the CD waited until after getting married to tell his wife.
I might be gay, but when I go to clubs, I go mainly to clubs that straights dominate. There are more straight people than there are gays. But these clubs are usually what can be described as alternative life style clubs(discos). I have no problems talking and making friends with straight women. They have no problem with the way that I dress, OK, some don’t realize that I am gay from the start. I don’t carry a sign, saying that I am gay, and I don’t always(I never) start a conversation with a woman saying that I am gay. But these girls hang out with me, we go out to eat together, and some call me to make a date for going out, these girls don’t care about the clothes. They are able to see the person through the clothes. OK, I haven’t gone out much lately, but these girls are still out there. I don’t think that they have vanished since a year ago.
I am not being harsh in my words here, but I think the main problem Cds have, is that they are choosing the wrong women for wives and girlfriends. Cds want a nice girl, but also one who would allow him to dress. I know that some Cds want a conservative style wife and lifestyle, but when the CD makes this choice, it sort of kills the argument on why my wife doesn’t let me dress. The CD made his choice. Life is all about making choices.
I know that some Cds don’t want the type of girls that I meet. But they aren’t really bad girls once you get to know them. The CD just has to look at these girls personallity and not the clothes that they wear, the CD should also be open minded when looking for a girlfriend. Most of these girls have the same thoughts and wishes as the “nice” girls have. Some want families and a house. But they are also open minded to other life styles that are out there. There are open minded women out there, you(meaning you all) just have to go to where they are. Like I said, I don’t know every ones age or situation in life, so because of different situations for Cds, I do understand that finding these girls can be rough. But they are out there, especially for the younger Cds.
A note: I’m sorry for using terms like “nice girl” and “bad girl”, “conservative girl”, I just didn’t have a better word to use, I didn’t mean it as an insult. You probably understand what I was trying to say.
I can only go by what I read in the CD forums that I am on, so, I am not an expert on women or marriage. Also, I understand that a lot of Cds got married years ago when things were more difficult for Cds. But, from what I read in these forums is that quite a few Cds would like a girl who is more on the conservative style of dress and attitude. Also because most of the Cds that I see on these forums also seem to have this idea as a way of life. I guess this girl can be described as a nice girl, a family raising girl. But these types of girls are not the most tolerant to the CD lifestyle, whether the CD is in the closet or out and about. When a CD marries these kinds of girls, they have to accept that it will interfere with their dressing, especially if the CD waited until after getting married to tell his wife.
I might be gay, but when I go to clubs, I go mainly to clubs that straights dominate. There are more straight people than there are gays. But these clubs are usually what can be described as alternative life style clubs(discos). I have no problems talking and making friends with straight women. They have no problem with the way that I dress, OK, some don’t realize that I am gay from the start. I don’t carry a sign, saying that I am gay, and I don’t always(I never) start a conversation with a woman saying that I am gay. But these girls hang out with me, we go out to eat together, and some call me to make a date for going out, these girls don’t care about the clothes. They are able to see the person through the clothes. OK, I haven’t gone out much lately, but these girls are still out there. I don’t think that they have vanished since a year ago.
I am not being harsh in my words here, but I think the main problem Cds have, is that they are choosing the wrong women for wives and girlfriends. Cds want a nice girl, but also one who would allow him to dress. I know that some Cds want a conservative style wife and lifestyle, but when the CD makes this choice, it sort of kills the argument on why my wife doesn’t let me dress. The CD made his choice. Life is all about making choices.
I know that some Cds don’t want the type of girls that I meet. But they aren’t really bad girls once you get to know them. The CD just has to look at these girls personallity and not the clothes that they wear, the CD should also be open minded when looking for a girlfriend. Most of these girls have the same thoughts and wishes as the “nice” girls have. Some want families and a house. But they are also open minded to other life styles that are out there. There are open minded women out there, you(meaning you all) just have to go to where they are. Like I said, I don’t know every ones age or situation in life, so because of different situations for Cds, I do understand that finding these girls can be rough. But they are out there, especially for the younger Cds.
A note: I’m sorry for using terms like “nice girl” and “bad girl”, “conservative girl”, I just didn’t have a better word to use, I didn’t mean it as an insult. You probably understand what I was trying to say.
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Stephanie W
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:57 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Andrea
An interesting observation! As I think you alluded to, you ask why they should be expected to understand. Personally, I don't think the GG's have to be ABLE to understand our need to dress. Yes, it would make our lives easier, but that IMHO, is more of a selfish point of view. (Just my opinion here!) As long as they TRY and understand, how could we ask for more? If we are able to help them along in their understanding, then we do so. However, we must not forget that also comes with a certain level of responsibility on our part, namely a respect for boundaries. For those who are lucky enough to have an understanding SO, you'll know what I mean.
SO's come from all walks of life, as do we, so we all come into a relationship with a variety of shades and nuances to our personality. Much of that coloured by our upbringing as we are often a product of our environment. That's not always a bad thing. In fact, I'm sure for a lot of CD's, we wouldn't change our wives or girlfriends for the world. I know I wouldn't! Even though they may not totally understand our need to dress, whether the conservative girl-next-door, whatever, so much more within a good relationship far outweighs this 'lack of understanding'. Obviously I can only speak for myself but while many may lament their SO's deficiency in the understanding department, we should stay focused on what makes our relationship important to begin with, be it love, compassion, nurturing, caring, a wonderful mother, our soulmate, and all those other good things. It does not invalidate our choice of partner as Amelie said.
Amelie
While I respect your comments, I do have to disagree with some of what you said. From what I can tell, yes, you do dance to a different tune to that of an average hetero CD - which is not a bad thing I might add. No one would argue that some of the girls you meet might be more 'worldly' so to speak. However, you are just as likely to find as many worldly, nice, conservative girls out there who would be just as comfortable being married to a CD, albeit not as concentrated in one area like those clubs/discos you go to. Of course, the difference is that you are 'out there' and everyone can see it. If they know you are gay, they aren't likely looking for a long term relationship with you, so while their acceptance of you as a person might indeed be genuine, it's not inconceivable to think that their 'openness' might not necessarily translate to someone they were thinking of settling down with.
For the vast majority of us who have been around a while, we come from a different place (time!). For various reasons, we simply weren't able to be 'out', so we lived with this part of ourselves as best we can. If we embraced it - wonderful. Then we could be open with our prospective spouse before we married them and they in turn would know what they were getting into - or at least we hope so.
For those who aren't out, or more to the point, hadn't accepted themselves, this was not an option. If they married without their spouse knowing of their CD, they probably hoped for the day they could tell their SO and pray she would be supportive. However, as we know, that is not always the case. Then they have to weigh up the consequences of telling her or just continue keeping it a secret. Either way, if everything else in the relationship is good, why should it invalidate their choice of partner? Way back when, I doubt too many of us even factored in a prospective partner's 'acceptance level' before starting a new relationship. I'd hazard a guess that was because many of us likely weren't even accepting of ourselves, so suppressing it was the natural thing to do. To that end, the important thing for me was finding someone who would love me as much as I loved them. First and foremost. When I knew my wife was the person I wanted to marry, I had already decided to keep my CDing to myself for ever if need be. Right or wrong, it was something I did for 17 years. That was then. Even if my wife wasn't as supportive as she is, I would have no regrets about marrying her again if I knew she would be at least be willing to try. Even without those guarantees, she has so many other qualities and aspects to her personality that it would have minimized the importance of her 'ability' to understand my CDing. So I guess I'm saying that in my opinion, the failure to understand is simply not enough of a reason to not marry someone. Sure, if her total acceptance of your dressing is the most important thing for you and you know she is not likely to ever understand it (or want to), then you can't blame anyone but yourself if your chose to marry her regardless. At that point, if she married you anyway, she's probably after your money!
I really believe that 'nice girls', 'conservative styles wives' and even 'family raising girls' can be just as open to allowing their partners to dress as the alternative party girl. The only difference might be the willingness of the latter to do your laundry or ironing.
Stephanie
An interesting observation! As I think you alluded to, you ask why they should be expected to understand. Personally, I don't think the GG's have to be ABLE to understand our need to dress. Yes, it would make our lives easier, but that IMHO, is more of a selfish point of view. (Just my opinion here!) As long as they TRY and understand, how could we ask for more? If we are able to help them along in their understanding, then we do so. However, we must not forget that also comes with a certain level of responsibility on our part, namely a respect for boundaries. For those who are lucky enough to have an understanding SO, you'll know what I mean.
SO's come from all walks of life, as do we, so we all come into a relationship with a variety of shades and nuances to our personality. Much of that coloured by our upbringing as we are often a product of our environment. That's not always a bad thing. In fact, I'm sure for a lot of CD's, we wouldn't change our wives or girlfriends for the world. I know I wouldn't! Even though they may not totally understand our need to dress, whether the conservative girl-next-door, whatever, so much more within a good relationship far outweighs this 'lack of understanding'. Obviously I can only speak for myself but while many may lament their SO's deficiency in the understanding department, we should stay focused on what makes our relationship important to begin with, be it love, compassion, nurturing, caring, a wonderful mother, our soulmate, and all those other good things. It does not invalidate our choice of partner as Amelie said.
Amelie
While I respect your comments, I do have to disagree with some of what you said. From what I can tell, yes, you do dance to a different tune to that of an average hetero CD - which is not a bad thing I might add. No one would argue that some of the girls you meet might be more 'worldly' so to speak. However, you are just as likely to find as many worldly, nice, conservative girls out there who would be just as comfortable being married to a CD, albeit not as concentrated in one area like those clubs/discos you go to. Of course, the difference is that you are 'out there' and everyone can see it. If they know you are gay, they aren't likely looking for a long term relationship with you, so while their acceptance of you as a person might indeed be genuine, it's not inconceivable to think that their 'openness' might not necessarily translate to someone they were thinking of settling down with.
For the vast majority of us who have been around a while, we come from a different place (time!). For various reasons, we simply weren't able to be 'out', so we lived with this part of ourselves as best we can. If we embraced it - wonderful. Then we could be open with our prospective spouse before we married them and they in turn would know what they were getting into - or at least we hope so.
For those who aren't out, or more to the point, hadn't accepted themselves, this was not an option. If they married without their spouse knowing of their CD, they probably hoped for the day they could tell their SO and pray she would be supportive. However, as we know, that is not always the case. Then they have to weigh up the consequences of telling her or just continue keeping it a secret. Either way, if everything else in the relationship is good, why should it invalidate their choice of partner? Way back when, I doubt too many of us even factored in a prospective partner's 'acceptance level' before starting a new relationship. I'd hazard a guess that was because many of us likely weren't even accepting of ourselves, so suppressing it was the natural thing to do. To that end, the important thing for me was finding someone who would love me as much as I loved them. First and foremost. When I knew my wife was the person I wanted to marry, I had already decided to keep my CDing to myself for ever if need be. Right or wrong, it was something I did for 17 years. That was then. Even if my wife wasn't as supportive as she is, I would have no regrets about marrying her again if I knew she would be at least be willing to try. Even without those guarantees, she has so many other qualities and aspects to her personality that it would have minimized the importance of her 'ability' to understand my CDing. So I guess I'm saying that in my opinion, the failure to understand is simply not enough of a reason to not marry someone. Sure, if her total acceptance of your dressing is the most important thing for you and you know she is not likely to ever understand it (or want to), then you can't blame anyone but yourself if your chose to marry her regardless. At that point, if she married you anyway, she's probably after your money!
I really believe that 'nice girls', 'conservative styles wives' and even 'family raising girls' can be just as open to allowing their partners to dress as the alternative party girl. The only difference might be the willingness of the latter to do your laundry or ironing.
Stephanie
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Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
Andrea,
Where to start? Take my wife!..............................please! No that is not it. How many categories can we come up with of GG acceptance? From 0 to 10, i.e. my wife being a zero - when I came out to her. I did not even know that Virginia existed until a few years ago and I after considerable research, determined that this was really important and she should be aware of this and I shared it --- she shared it with an attorney who called me "an insane pervert" and that's that. Zero! It would take volumes to construct the various stages of acceptance from 1 - 10. Like those GG's that say they do but don't because for what ever reason(s) have to put up with it because they are so dependent on "us" for their support and maintenance to the 10 which I can not fathom even existing - one of total complete and fully supportive and participatory.
Some see "us" as competitive like another woman in the marriage vying for the affections of "her man!" and the claws come out!
Some who say "I understand!" and spend their time laughing their heads off behind our backs. To those who go into a state of either shock or denial and in (their) attempts to find some "stability" in the situation seek to either learn more about us, and/or participate by either helping with make-up, dressing, or going so far a buying stuff for us or shock of shocks actually going shopping with us and add to that the unbelieveable aspect of while we are "en femme!"
I am of the same thought and action as you, Andrea. I feel I have transended (God, I hope so) that overpowering need to dress, to that rhelm of developing the charactieristics that I so admire in most women. Empathy, caring, gentleness, tenderness, love, sharing, crying, etc. It is not for all of us to "go there" and there is not anything wrong with not wanting or caring to go there. But as was stated, it seems that most GG's want a guy with those characteristics but if they come with the desire to "wear her clothes?" Well, that is where they either draw the line or completely loose it!!!
I will say this in our defense. If a GG is open minded enough to learn about what drives us and can get past the threat of "the other woman." She will find that she has a real treasure!
Love,
Virginia
Where to start? Take my wife!..............................please! No that is not it. How many categories can we come up with of GG acceptance? From 0 to 10, i.e. my wife being a zero - when I came out to her. I did not even know that Virginia existed until a few years ago and I after considerable research, determined that this was really important and she should be aware of this and I shared it --- she shared it with an attorney who called me "an insane pervert" and that's that. Zero! It would take volumes to construct the various stages of acceptance from 1 - 10. Like those GG's that say they do but don't because for what ever reason(s) have to put up with it because they are so dependent on "us" for their support and maintenance to the 10 which I can not fathom even existing - one of total complete and fully supportive and participatory.
Some see "us" as competitive like another woman in the marriage vying for the affections of "her man!" and the claws come out!
Some who say "I understand!" and spend their time laughing their heads off behind our backs. To those who go into a state of either shock or denial and in (their) attempts to find some "stability" in the situation seek to either learn more about us, and/or participate by either helping with make-up, dressing, or going so far a buying stuff for us or shock of shocks actually going shopping with us and add to that the unbelieveable aspect of while we are "en femme!"
I am of the same thought and action as you, Andrea. I feel I have transended (God, I hope so) that overpowering need to dress, to that rhelm of developing the charactieristics that I so admire in most women. Empathy, caring, gentleness, tenderness, love, sharing, crying, etc. It is not for all of us to "go there" and there is not anything wrong with not wanting or caring to go there. But as was stated, it seems that most GG's want a guy with those characteristics but if they come with the desire to "wear her clothes?" Well, that is where they either draw the line or completely loose it!!!
I will say this in our defense. If a GG is open minded enough to learn about what drives us and can get past the threat of "the other woman." She will find that she has a real treasure!
Love,
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Marda
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:09 pm
- Location: Vancouver Canada
As *Green* As The Day I Was Born
Are (classic) CDs being or thinking 'too real' or 'too serious' about themselves? ...
- trying too hard to be recognized or legitimized as being 'the same as', or 'as good as', 'only different'?
~
Lately I've noticed a proliferation of "ETAs" in my area; "Elvis Tribute Artists"
- imo, there's nothing more lame than cheap, imitation, ripoffs of an 'original' for nothing more than giggles
- worse, is when it's a sleezy marketing gimmick ...
People seem to accept 'ETAs' because they don't see them as 'threatening' anything?
~
Maybe CDs, by definition, can never be anything but "GGTAs"?
But then, 'GGTAs' (especially the really convincing, or good looking ones) could be seen by GGs (or the FBI, or Homeland Security) as a 'threat'? - or by GMs as being a 'fraud'? ...
~
Maybe part of being a GG is the inborn 'right to feel threatened' by anything, anytime?
Maybe CDs have to be satisfied with
feeling 'unaccepted' and/or 'misunderstood'
as their own 'unique version' of [being 'as close as a nonGG can get']
'feeling threatened' ???
~
Maybe cyberspace is just a blind detour; and if CDs really want to be accepted as anything more than threats, frauds, whiners or freaks, maybe they have to get out of the closet and onto the streets (I'm not sure about the malls)?
But that's getting pretty close to 'gay pride', and the entire concept (if there is one) of CD will probably get lost in that mix?
~
Personally, I'm sticking with being "Green"
~
Of course what I'd really like to know is what blind people think about all of this ???
~
h/s / Marda
- trying too hard to be recognized or legitimized as being 'the same as', or 'as good as', 'only different'?
~
Lately I've noticed a proliferation of "ETAs" in my area; "Elvis Tribute Artists"
- imo, there's nothing more lame than cheap, imitation, ripoffs of an 'original' for nothing more than giggles
- worse, is when it's a sleezy marketing gimmick ...
People seem to accept 'ETAs' because they don't see them as 'threatening' anything?
~
Maybe CDs, by definition, can never be anything but "GGTAs"?
But then, 'GGTAs' (especially the really convincing, or good looking ones) could be seen by GGs (or the FBI, or Homeland Security) as a 'threat'? - or by GMs as being a 'fraud'? ...
~
Maybe part of being a GG is the inborn 'right to feel threatened' by anything, anytime?
Maybe CDs have to be satisfied with
feeling 'unaccepted' and/or 'misunderstood'
as their own 'unique version' of [being 'as close as a nonGG can get']
'feeling threatened' ???
~
Maybe cyberspace is just a blind detour; and if CDs really want to be accepted as anything more than threats, frauds, whiners or freaks, maybe they have to get out of the closet and onto the streets (I'm not sure about the malls)?
But that's getting pretty close to 'gay pride', and the entire concept (if there is one) of CD will probably get lost in that mix?
~
Personally, I'm sticking with being "Green"
~
Of course what I'd really like to know is what blind people think about all of this ???
~
h/s / Marda
~ Some drink at the fountain of knowledge - Others just gargle ~
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Amelie-Laveau
- Permanently Banned
- Posts: 629
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:20 pm
Stephanie, I might be wrong with what I said about conservative type girls, I was only basing my thoughts on the threads that I read in this and other CD forums. There are a lot more threads and posts about Ggs and So’s who don’t like their men Cding than there are posts of accepting wives and girlfriends. On Cd forums, there are usually a couple of different threads a week that talk about wives that are upset, wives that are leaving their men, or just general threads of unaccepting Ggs as a whole. I also read in the CD forums where most of the Cds dress conservatively and basicly live this kind of lifestyle. So, put these two thoughts together and thought that maybe the Cds were looking for the wrong type of girl. I do know that there are some conservative type girls that are accepting of Cds, but from what I read on these forums, it doesn’t seem as many as the girls that I have met or seen the clubs. If there were as many conservative type Ggs into Cds, there wouldn’t be so many posts describing unaccepting wives and Ggs. I am only going by what I read in the CD forums, maybe it is different outside of the forums, I don’t know.
The girls that I met in the clubs, didn’t know that I was gay, yet they still wanted to hang out with me, call me for a date, and it would sort of lead up to where it could go further if I didn’t tell them that I was gay. Ok, I wouldn’t know 100% that they would marry me, but they were interested in me, they didn’t run away from me, they gave me the chance to talk to them, to get to know them. I don’t hear about these kinds of girls on these forums, I mostly read posts on how tough it is for a cd to meet Ggs who don’t care about the clothes.
I guess one has to go out to these types of clubs in order to see what I am trying to say, I can’t put it well enough into words.. Also I guess what I am trying to say is, the CD will increase her odds at finding a girl if she looks in the same places that I have been. I don’t know how to find a conservative type girl, I have never been where they are. Actually, this might make a good thread, “Where does a CD go to find a nice girl who will accept her dressing as a man” Now a thread with this topic would be most useful from what I read in these forums where Cds have a difficult time finding an accepting GG. I am only basing my thoughts on what most Cds on these forums have posted before.
And I did write in my post that I understand d that some CDs got married when things were different and some situations can be rough. That is why I said my thoughts would be good for the younger Cds.
Marda, I am a DPTA,,,a Dolly Parton Tribute Artist
The girls that I met in the clubs, didn’t know that I was gay, yet they still wanted to hang out with me, call me for a date, and it would sort of lead up to where it could go further if I didn’t tell them that I was gay. Ok, I wouldn’t know 100% that they would marry me, but they were interested in me, they didn’t run away from me, they gave me the chance to talk to them, to get to know them. I don’t hear about these kinds of girls on these forums, I mostly read posts on how tough it is for a cd to meet Ggs who don’t care about the clothes.
I guess one has to go out to these types of clubs in order to see what I am trying to say, I can’t put it well enough into words.. Also I guess what I am trying to say is, the CD will increase her odds at finding a girl if she looks in the same places that I have been. I don’t know how to find a conservative type girl, I have never been where they are. Actually, this might make a good thread, “Where does a CD go to find a nice girl who will accept her dressing as a man” Now a thread with this topic would be most useful from what I read in these forums where Cds have a difficult time finding an accepting GG. I am only basing my thoughts on what most Cds on these forums have posted before.
And I did write in my post that I understand d that some CDs got married when things were different and some situations can be rough. That is why I said my thoughts would be good for the younger Cds.
Marda, I am a DPTA,,,a Dolly Parton Tribute Artist
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Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
Marda,
Honey, as usual your "post" makes me think, not long but I do consider what you have said and well, uh!? Marching in the streets well that I understand - ain't gonna happen in your lifetime or mine. It will take the DSM VIII - X to continue to "tell society" that we are not twisted, insane, perverted weirdos. in need of electric shock treatment! We do have "a gift" and it develops (if at all) to various stages within different individuals kinda like the range of GG's acceptance of "our gift." Damn, what was the question?? You always give this blond a headache
I would not dream of speaking for any of my sisters here, I do know what Virginia has done for me and how my sisters here have pointed me in the right direction and where I am now and want to go - I am absolutely loving my "Magical Mystery Tour." Hope that you will/can enjoy yours!
Virginia
Honey, as usual your "post" makes me think, not long but I do consider what you have said and well, uh!? Marching in the streets well that I understand - ain't gonna happen in your lifetime or mine. It will take the DSM VIII - X to continue to "tell society" that we are not twisted, insane, perverted weirdos. in need of electric shock treatment! We do have "a gift" and it develops (if at all) to various stages within different individuals kinda like the range of GG's acceptance of "our gift." Damn, what was the question?? You always give this blond a headache
I would not dream of speaking for any of my sisters here, I do know what Virginia has done for me and how my sisters here have pointed me in the right direction and where I am now and want to go - I am absolutely loving my "Magical Mystery Tour." Hope that you will/can enjoy yours!
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Stephanie W
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:57 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Amelie
Thanks for the clarification. I will agree there are more gg's around these types of forums that appear not to be supportive. In all honesty though, I'd be surprised if there weren't, as this is essentially what the purpose of forums like this are all about. (at least those that encourage GG participation and provide a safe area for them to vent if need be). My wife has had little interest thusfar in participating in forums such as this, mainly because of other priorities around the home but if she was struggling with this, I know she would be more apt to seeking out these kinds of forums. So by default, it's not unreasonable to assume that those who don't participate, might just be OK with their spouse's cding, with no need to seek out a forum like this. In this day age, we can claim some (albeit slow) progress in changing public attitudes about what we do, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with making them feel more at ease. That said, the supportive ones who do visit us are a great asset to us all and provide a beacon of hope for those who are still struggling. So it's all good.
As to the desire of many CD's who choose to dress conservatively, I think you'll find a good number of them are older folk, so that really is no surprise either. When you bring boundaries into play, it goes without saying that most SO's will prefer their man dress appropriately. I don't think that's too much to ask. I know we all share a desire to play the bad girl at times, (yep, me too) but I do think an SO who is trying to get her head around this whole concept deserves her feelings and wishes be respected. If that means 'conservative' then so be it. I think at the end of the day, so much depends on the kind of relationship a CD is in. Perhaps many of those you have run across are not in a 'loving' relationship or are experiencing other marital problems? Who knows? Those that are in a good relationship, I find, are less prone to complaining if there is give and take on both sides.
I would agree that a CD looking for a relationship might have some luck in a club, but whether that gal would be prepared for the long haul, who knows? Maybe you're right. I would encourage anyone looking, not to give up hope as there are gals out there who dream of meeting and marrying a CD. Now if only I knew where they were hiding when I was a teenager.
Stephanie
Thanks for the clarification. I will agree there are more gg's around these types of forums that appear not to be supportive. In all honesty though, I'd be surprised if there weren't, as this is essentially what the purpose of forums like this are all about. (at least those that encourage GG participation and provide a safe area for them to vent if need be). My wife has had little interest thusfar in participating in forums such as this, mainly because of other priorities around the home but if she was struggling with this, I know she would be more apt to seeking out these kinds of forums. So by default, it's not unreasonable to assume that those who don't participate, might just be OK with their spouse's cding, with no need to seek out a forum like this. In this day age, we can claim some (albeit slow) progress in changing public attitudes about what we do, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with making them feel more at ease. That said, the supportive ones who do visit us are a great asset to us all and provide a beacon of hope for those who are still struggling. So it's all good.
As to the desire of many CD's who choose to dress conservatively, I think you'll find a good number of them are older folk, so that really is no surprise either. When you bring boundaries into play, it goes without saying that most SO's will prefer their man dress appropriately. I don't think that's too much to ask. I know we all share a desire to play the bad girl at times, (yep, me too) but I do think an SO who is trying to get her head around this whole concept deserves her feelings and wishes be respected. If that means 'conservative' then so be it. I think at the end of the day, so much depends on the kind of relationship a CD is in. Perhaps many of those you have run across are not in a 'loving' relationship or are experiencing other marital problems? Who knows? Those that are in a good relationship, I find, are less prone to complaining if there is give and take on both sides.
The girls that I met in the clubs, didn’t know that I was gay, yet they still wanted to hang out with me, call me for a date, and it would sort of lead up to where it could go further if I didn’t tell them that I was gay. Ok, I wouldn’t know 100% that they would marry me, but they were interested in me, they didn’t run away from me,
With all due respect, while that may be true, it's also likely there could be just as many who might be uncomfortable around you but you may never know that. In clubs I think most folks are just out for a good time and it's usually a very relaxed atmosphere, where inhibitions are left at the door. Unless it's a 'conservative straights-only' club, I doubt anyone would be shocked or surprised to meet someone a little 'different'. Hey, that's all part of the fun, right? If you're having fun too, then good for you! You said you have a hard time finding a conservative girl, but I'll bet some of the gals you meet at the clubs are much different away from them, so you may have met one of them already and not realized it.I do know that there are some conservative type girls that are accepting of Cds, but from what I read on these forums, it doesn’t seem as many as the girls that I have met or seen the clubs.
I would agree that a CD looking for a relationship might have some luck in a club, but whether that gal would be prepared for the long haul, who knows? Maybe you're right. I would encourage anyone looking, not to give up hope as there are gals out there who dream of meeting and marrying a CD. Now if only I knew where they were hiding when I was a teenager.
Stephanie
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Hayley
- Miss Sapphire Goddess
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:47 pm
- Location: Australia
Lost within Gay Pride
Marda,
Just replying to an observation/comment you made that caught my eye. My reply is a bit long winded and not a personal shot at you in any way. This is for all to read and comment on if they wish.
I am a self-confessed advocate of the rights of the GLBT society, for total integration into general society, as have been granted every immigrant in the civilised societies.
quote "Maybe cyberspace is just a blind detour; and if CDs really want to be accepted as anything more than threats, frauds, whiners or freaks, maybe they have to get out of the closet and onto the streets (I'm not sure about the malls)? But that's getting pretty close to 'gay pride', and the entire concept (if there is one) of CD will probably get lost in that mix?" unquote
For our community be recognised, we have a long road to travel, which will inevitably run parallel to the same course our Gay and Lesbian siblings have travelled. A general perception of most CD's in societies view has been masked behind Cinema, Talk Shows and Drag Shows (no offence meant Darlings). Therefore trying to get out into the community and say "Guess what we exist and we're not freaks", means getting away from the daytime trashy talk shows, out of the cinema and into the struggle other's have travelled for us.
The CD community has been getting a Piggyback Ride off of the Pride movement for some time. Here in Australia we have a CD Support Group that marches with our Gay and Lesbian siblings every year at the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras. It is a time for us all to join hands and support each other.
Getting lost in the mix is already a symptom of our existance as humans due to social prejudices, that we CD's are Gay etc. It is through travelling within the GLBT Struggle that our voices shall also be heard and eventually the truth shall be seen for exactly what it is.....The Truth. Then, and only then can we embrace our G&L family and thank them with all our hearts for letting us tag along and use a part of their struggle to springboard our fight for acceptance off the starting blocks. In fact we should be right in the struggle with them now, as the gains our G&L siblings have made thus far are what we seek, they embrace us in their fight now and we should be thanking them and joining them in droves.
The G&L community have struggled for decades to even get some of the freedoms they enjoy today, and yet they are still target's for hate crimes. They still do not have the rights that the general community have in recognition of legal spousal/marital rights. They are still confined in general to pocket communities, integration into the so-called general society is masked by the districts in cities that are marked as Gay areas. Homophobia believe it or not affects us CD's as well, whether we be Hetero, Gay, Lesbian (our FTM brothers), Bisexual (as am I) or ....hey us.... the Trans community.
All we need is to get off our sensitivities and have a go.
Love to all
Just replying to an observation/comment you made that caught my eye. My reply is a bit long winded and not a personal shot at you in any way. This is for all to read and comment on if they wish.
I am a self-confessed advocate of the rights of the GLBT society, for total integration into general society, as have been granted every immigrant in the civilised societies.
quote "Maybe cyberspace is just a blind detour; and if CDs really want to be accepted as anything more than threats, frauds, whiners or freaks, maybe they have to get out of the closet and onto the streets (I'm not sure about the malls)? But that's getting pretty close to 'gay pride', and the entire concept (if there is one) of CD will probably get lost in that mix?" unquote
For our community be recognised, we have a long road to travel, which will inevitably run parallel to the same course our Gay and Lesbian siblings have travelled. A general perception of most CD's in societies view has been masked behind Cinema, Talk Shows and Drag Shows (no offence meant Darlings). Therefore trying to get out into the community and say "Guess what we exist and we're not freaks", means getting away from the daytime trashy talk shows, out of the cinema and into the struggle other's have travelled for us.
The CD community has been getting a Piggyback Ride off of the Pride movement for some time. Here in Australia we have a CD Support Group that marches with our Gay and Lesbian siblings every year at the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras. It is a time for us all to join hands and support each other.
Getting lost in the mix is already a symptom of our existance as humans due to social prejudices, that we CD's are Gay etc. It is through travelling within the GLBT Struggle that our voices shall also be heard and eventually the truth shall be seen for exactly what it is.....The Truth. Then, and only then can we embrace our G&L family and thank them with all our hearts for letting us tag along and use a part of their struggle to springboard our fight for acceptance off the starting blocks. In fact we should be right in the struggle with them now, as the gains our G&L siblings have made thus far are what we seek, they embrace us in their fight now and we should be thanking them and joining them in droves.
The G&L community have struggled for decades to even get some of the freedoms they enjoy today, and yet they are still target's for hate crimes. They still do not have the rights that the general community have in recognition of legal spousal/marital rights. They are still confined in general to pocket communities, integration into the so-called general society is masked by the districts in cities that are marked as Gay areas. Homophobia believe it or not affects us CD's as well, whether we be Hetero, Gay, Lesbian (our FTM brothers), Bisexual (as am I) or ....hey us.... the Trans community.
All we need is to get off our sensitivities and have a go.
Love to all
Big Hugs, Juliann "Self acceptance is not the absence of fear... but the conquest of it!"
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Marlena Dahlstrom
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 217
- Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:54 am
- Location: SF Bay Area
For what it's worth, Amelie's observation was echoed in Richard Docter's "Transvestites and Transsexuals."
That said, I and others have found GGs are typically far more accepting of CDing if it's not their man. So while I agree that women who are more "flexible" in their lifestyles are more likely to be accepting, there's a big difference between talking to a CD at a club and actually dating one.
(Incidentally, I suspect there's probably a similar dynamic in gay couples. I remember a good article on CDing done by a gay reporter who went out en femme with a local CD group -- and whose boyfriend freaked out seeing him in a dress.
Something big that's not being discussed here is how much of the problems are really about the fact that the CDing was hid from them rather than the CDing itself. That's something I've heard numerous times.
That said, I and others have found GGs are typically far more accepting of CDing if it's not their man. So while I agree that women who are more "flexible" in their lifestyles are more likely to be accepting, there's a big difference between talking to a CD at a club and actually dating one.
(Incidentally, I suspect there's probably a similar dynamic in gay couples. I remember a good article on CDing done by a gay reporter who went out en femme with a local CD group -- and whose boyfriend freaked out seeing him in a dress.
from http://www.masquerade.ca/index2.html?swerve.html)We stop at my apartment to drop off my day clothes. My partner, who had no idea what I'm up to, runs around the apartment with his hands over his face, "I'm dating a drag queen! I'm dating a drag queen!"
Something big that's not being discussed here is how much of the problems are really about the fact that the CDing was hid from them rather than the CDing itself. That's something I've heard numerous times.
Lena
A dream? What is a dream, but a blueprint for courageous action.
A dream? What is a dream, but a blueprint for courageous action.
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Curly(SO)
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 879
- Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:08 am
- Location: UK
I agree with you, Stephanie, I'm sure there are plenty of GG's that are supportive and accepting of their partner's CDing, who would not think to look for a forum.
For me, when Ed told me about his CDing, I wasn't shocked or upset, I just had questions going round my head that needed answering. (Questions relating to sexuality and my issues around feeling jealous, what effect would CDing have on our relationship? etc) Ed answered a lot of them but I kind of needed to hear other CDers giving the same answers, that's why I did a search online for info. I found a lot of helpful stuff, but I particularly liked this forum as it was for both SO's and CDers.
I started out needing to know why, but I no longer feel that. I can say that I fully understand that my husband needs to CD but I don't need to know why. Ed doesn't know why he needs to CD so there's not much chance I'm ever going to know! We spend time theorizing and chatting about theories we have heard about, that's fun, but not all that important to us to have the definitive answer.
I'm no longer troubled by questions related to Ed's CDing, I've found all the answers I needed to the issues that were bothering me to start with.
I am fascinated by Gender issues but not troubled by them, if that makes sense! I'm still here for that reason.
I fully support Ed's CDing and would not put boundaries on him, regarding CDing. I am not an exceptional person, I had a very ordinary upbringing. Though not 'conservative' I am an not 'alternative lifestyle' person either. So that makes me think there must be truckloads of other GG's that would be just as accepting of CDing as me.
I have an idea that maybe the ability for a GG to accept CDing is along the lines of whether you are attracted to someone or not, on a very simple level. For example you may look at a tall blonde girl and fancy her but the bloke next to you may find her quite unattractive, just not his type, it is not something you have too much control over. Maybe this is how it is with CDing. For women like me, I wasn't freaked by it, it didn't turn me off my hubby, but I can understand some women being instantly turned off by it. There is no right or wrong, just as it's not wrong for someone to not fancy you. Though, I do believe there is scope for some GG's to work on accepting their partner's CDing if they want to.
I'm sorry if that is a lot of waffle!
Love,
Curly(SO)
For me, when Ed told me about his CDing, I wasn't shocked or upset, I just had questions going round my head that needed answering. (Questions relating to sexuality and my issues around feeling jealous, what effect would CDing have on our relationship? etc) Ed answered a lot of them but I kind of needed to hear other CDers giving the same answers, that's why I did a search online for info. I found a lot of helpful stuff, but I particularly liked this forum as it was for both SO's and CDers.
I started out needing to know why, but I no longer feel that. I can say that I fully understand that my husband needs to CD but I don't need to know why. Ed doesn't know why he needs to CD so there's not much chance I'm ever going to know! We spend time theorizing and chatting about theories we have heard about, that's fun, but not all that important to us to have the definitive answer.
I'm no longer troubled by questions related to Ed's CDing, I've found all the answers I needed to the issues that were bothering me to start with.
I am fascinated by Gender issues but not troubled by them, if that makes sense! I'm still here for that reason.
I fully support Ed's CDing and would not put boundaries on him, regarding CDing. I am not an exceptional person, I had a very ordinary upbringing. Though not 'conservative' I am an not 'alternative lifestyle' person either. So that makes me think there must be truckloads of other GG's that would be just as accepting of CDing as me.
I have an idea that maybe the ability for a GG to accept CDing is along the lines of whether you are attracted to someone or not, on a very simple level. For example you may look at a tall blonde girl and fancy her but the bloke next to you may find her quite unattractive, just not his type, it is not something you have too much control over. Maybe this is how it is with CDing. For women like me, I wasn't freaked by it, it didn't turn me off my hubby, but I can understand some women being instantly turned off by it. There is no right or wrong, just as it's not wrong for someone to not fancy you. Though, I do believe there is scope for some GG's to work on accepting their partner's CDing if they want to.
I'm sorry if that is a lot of waffle!
Love,
Curly(SO)
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SilverLady(SO)
- Retired Site Administrator
- Posts: 5419
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:00 am
- Location: Strange Magic Hill (Virginia)
Curly wrote:
Well said, Curly, and I'm in one of those trucks, sitting right next to you! My reasons for joining - and staying - with this forum are the same as yours. Great minds DO think alike!!
I am not an exceptional person, I had a very ordinary upbringing. Though not 'conservative' I am an not 'alternative lifestyle' person either. So that makes me think there must be truckloads of other GG's that would be just as accepting of CDing as me.
Well said, Curly, and I'm in one of those trucks, sitting right next to you! My reasons for joining - and staying - with this forum are the same as yours. Great minds DO think alike!!
SilverLady(SO)
- Native Motor City and Wolverine gal . . . GO BLUE!!
- Molon Labe - Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis - Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
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Proud Military Family - Navy, Army, Coast Guard, National Guard
- Native Motor City and Wolverine gal . . . GO BLUE!!
- Molon Labe - Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis - Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
-
Proud Military Family - Navy, Army, Coast Guard, National Guard -
Lorna
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 2739
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:41 pm
- Location: NY
I guess I am the "square peg" here. I live in New York. An overwhelming majority of the GGs that I know & interact with are not only fine with the CD lifestyle, but many of them also are totally intrigued (and dare I say, yes there is a healthy percentage of those who would still date us, even with this knowledge up front) And I have the photos to prove it.
Live it. Love it. OWN IT.
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CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
It's been said before--by GG's, no less!--but I guess it bears repeating: others (including GG's who may or may not be potential SO's) will have an easier time loving and accepting us insofar as we've found a way to love and accept ourselves. Perhaps this is why the secrecy and shame bothers some GG's; it points to an inability to do just that.
As an added bonus, if we really do love and accept ourselves as we are, it won't bother us as much if another person doesn't. However, if we're going through this process (learning to love and accept ourselves) while we're partnered to an SO who's "still in the dark" we're then, in some sense, "dragging" her along for the ride. Expect resistance. It's only normal. If a woman gets back home from the butcher shop and unwraps the pork chops in order to prepare the recipe she had planned for dinner only to discover that she was mistakenly given a pound of ground veal or a dozen kielbasa sausages (or a few slices of filet mignon ) she has at least two options: take the goods back to the butcher's or change her plans, come up with a different recipe (often only to discover she actually has no recipes on file for what was given her at the butcher's). Sorry for the crude analogy, but it applies.
Making that dinner then becomes a "fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants" affair. It's stressful. Stressful but, hopefully, manageable and doable--if she's creative and flexible and if the ingredients are good. Wanting GG's or SO's to "understand" us is asking them to be creative and flexible beyond what they were expecting having to be when they walked out of that butcher shop. Some adjustment may be required. Either that or, as we have seen here in the life of some of our members, a return trip to the butcher's is in order. Neither option is more honourable or dishonourable than the other; it largely depends on what everyone wants out of life and on how they expect to go about getting it.
There are many, many things I don't understand about the people around me who are a part of my life (and this, even when they do their very best to explain it to me); however, with very few exceptions (my troubled relationship with my parents being a good example), this "lack" on my part doesn't prevent me from loving and accepting them--even when they believe I don't.
Again, interesting topic.
Love,
CJ
It's been said before--by GG's, no less!--but I guess it bears repeating: others (including GG's who may or may not be potential SO's) will have an easier time loving and accepting us insofar as we've found a way to love and accept ourselves. Perhaps this is why the secrecy and shame bothers some GG's; it points to an inability to do just that.
As an added bonus, if we really do love and accept ourselves as we are, it won't bother us as much if another person doesn't. However, if we're going through this process (learning to love and accept ourselves) while we're partnered to an SO who's "still in the dark" we're then, in some sense, "dragging" her along for the ride. Expect resistance. It's only normal. If a woman gets back home from the butcher shop and unwraps the pork chops in order to prepare the recipe she had planned for dinner only to discover that she was mistakenly given a pound of ground veal or a dozen kielbasa sausages (or a few slices of filet mignon
) she has at least two options: take the goods back to the butcher's or change her plans, come up with a different recipe (often only to discover she actually has no recipes on file for what was given her at the butcher's). Sorry for the crude analogy, but it applies.Making that dinner then becomes a "fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants" affair. It's stressful. Stressful but, hopefully, manageable and doable--if she's creative and flexible and if the ingredients are good. Wanting GG's or SO's to "understand" us is asking them to be creative and flexible beyond what they were expecting having to be when they walked out of that butcher shop. Some adjustment may be required. Either that or, as we have seen here in the life of some of our members, a return trip to the butcher's is in order. Neither option is more honourable or dishonourable than the other; it largely depends on what everyone wants out of life and on how they expect to go about getting it.
There are many, many things I don't understand about the people around me who are a part of my life (and this, even when they do their very best to explain it to me); however, with very few exceptions (my troubled relationship with my parents being a good example), this "lack" on my part doesn't prevent me from loving and accepting them--even when they believe I don't.
Again, interesting topic.
Love,
CJ
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Danielle La Belle
- Account Deactivated at Member's Request
- Posts: 994
- Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:49 am
- Location: SC
I think that we all have a reasonably similar idea about how others view our behavior. This view is typically formed from observation as most social scientists do when they wish to examine a human trait or behavior.
I have had the blessed opportunity to watch closely the growth and mental development of my grand-daughter, age 10, and my 1st grand-son, age 7, 2nd grand-son is only 14 months at this writing. The first two children were my experimental children as I wanted to observe and record in a personal diary their actions, perceptions and interactions from day one.
I am not breaking new ground here girls. It has been done before mega times by official social scientists of all walks. But, for me, I got to control the experiments and make comparisons. I will tell you about one such experiment.
My grand-daughter liked to dress up in an outfit that my spouse made for her to replicate a cartoon character known as "Sailor Moon." Yellow hair with long pig tails, a white blouse and blue skirt jumper. She would wear this with a small crown and be "Sailor Moon."
One day when my grandson was 4 years old and came by to stay the night we would play games as usual. We played with the stuffed animals and some of the [male] dolls that my grand-daughter had collected. Then we got out the [girl] dolls at his request and the boy dolls would fight over the girls. His idea.
He noticed the "Sailor Moon" outfit for some reason, knowing it was his sisters and asked with a grin if he could try it on. My spouse was near by and we agreed that he could. We told him it was his sisters hero outfit. Well, you can only immagine. After about 10 minutes he took it off and said it was too hot to wear. At no point did we ever make fun, laugh or treat him any differently. We have never brought this up in front of anyone to embarrass him.
He just wanted to be a super hero and did not associate at the time that this might be wrong or that it might in some way be exciting. He simply saw this as his sisters and he was going to get to play with it. One day he told his sister when they were both over to play that he had tried on her outfit. She said, "that's for girls only and I'm a girl and you are not."
He smiled and said "yeah, but I got to try it anyway."
My grand-daughter was age 7 at the time, just reaching the "age of reason". For her this was a violation of the boy-girl rule, no getting around that at age 7. For him, it was just fun at age 4. It never has happened again. He shows no interest what so ever and that's that.
But, what we have here is perhaps a hidden answer for us to consider. My grand-daughter, without ever being told otherwise, decided from what she had seen and heard over the years that there is a distinct division between male and female. We all learn this by age 5. We know or believe that there is this curtain that is drawn and we shall not pass it.
My grand-daughter recently made the remark about her jeans and I said, aren't those just for "men and boys." "No", was her reply, "these are made for girls only". They had sparkles on them and little hearts. I said "but, don't boys only wear pants and girls wear dresses?" "No, we can wear what we want" she said in reply.
I asked, "how about boys?" "Boys do not wear dresses ever" she replied. "They would not look the same in them." She does not know about CDing or any other exception to the rule yet. For her the rule is strict, straight and unbendable.
Perhaps, considering this we might see how a GG can grow up with this "rule" and consider it "unbreakable." It becomes a rule of "natural law" to her. Bears are bears, tigers are tigers, etc. While nature permits variations in their color and markings, they are designed to fit a category that they will never escape.
Changing our mind about this comparison is rather complicated. We have rules that we live by and expect everyone to obey. When they do not, there is always our legal system to remedy this with incarceration of those that do not conform to the majority that rules the roost.
Just a thought.
Hugs
Danielle Marie
I have had the blessed opportunity to watch closely the growth and mental development of my grand-daughter, age 10, and my 1st grand-son, age 7, 2nd grand-son is only 14 months at this writing. The first two children were my experimental children as I wanted to observe and record in a personal diary their actions, perceptions and interactions from day one.
I am not breaking new ground here girls. It has been done before mega times by official social scientists of all walks. But, for me, I got to control the experiments and make comparisons. I will tell you about one such experiment.
My grand-daughter liked to dress up in an outfit that my spouse made for her to replicate a cartoon character known as "Sailor Moon." Yellow hair with long pig tails, a white blouse and blue skirt jumper. She would wear this with a small crown and be "Sailor Moon."
One day when my grandson was 4 years old and came by to stay the night we would play games as usual. We played with the stuffed animals and some of the [male] dolls that my grand-daughter had collected. Then we got out the [girl] dolls at his request and the boy dolls would fight over the girls. His idea.
He noticed the "Sailor Moon" outfit for some reason, knowing it was his sisters and asked with a grin if he could try it on. My spouse was near by and we agreed that he could. We told him it was his sisters hero outfit. Well, you can only immagine. After about 10 minutes he took it off and said it was too hot to wear. At no point did we ever make fun, laugh or treat him any differently. We have never brought this up in front of anyone to embarrass him.
He just wanted to be a super hero and did not associate at the time that this might be wrong or that it might in some way be exciting. He simply saw this as his sisters and he was going to get to play with it. One day he told his sister when they were both over to play that he had tried on her outfit. She said, "that's for girls only and I'm a girl and you are not."
He smiled and said "yeah, but I got to try it anyway."
My grand-daughter was age 7 at the time, just reaching the "age of reason". For her this was a violation of the boy-girl rule, no getting around that at age 7. For him, it was just fun at age 4. It never has happened again. He shows no interest what so ever and that's that.
But, what we have here is perhaps a hidden answer for us to consider. My grand-daughter, without ever being told otherwise, decided from what she had seen and heard over the years that there is a distinct division between male and female. We all learn this by age 5. We know or believe that there is this curtain that is drawn and we shall not pass it.
My grand-daughter recently made the remark about her jeans and I said, aren't those just for "men and boys." "No", was her reply, "these are made for girls only". They had sparkles on them and little hearts. I said "but, don't boys only wear pants and girls wear dresses?" "No, we can wear what we want" she said in reply.
I asked, "how about boys?" "Boys do not wear dresses ever" she replied. "They would not look the same in them." She does not know about CDing or any other exception to the rule yet. For her the rule is strict, straight and unbendable.
Perhaps, considering this we might see how a GG can grow up with this "rule" and consider it "unbreakable." It becomes a rule of "natural law" to her. Bears are bears, tigers are tigers, etc. While nature permits variations in their color and markings, they are designed to fit a category that they will never escape.
Changing our mind about this comparison is rather complicated. We have rules that we live by and expect everyone to obey. When they do not, there is always our legal system to remedy this with incarceration of those that do not conform to the majority that rules the roost.
Just a thought.
Hugs
Danielle Marie
Make the most of every day!