Groupthink on this board?

[Daniel]

On the issues of leg shaving and shopping, there seems to be unanimous reporting of being able to do both without worry.

So unanimous, in fact, that I suspect groupthink. Groupthink is when people are afraid to say what they really want to say because it deviates from what the rest of the group thinks.

Are people who have had trouble with these or anything similar, afraid to post their unpleasant experience? On another board I sort of did just that once, and got thoroughly trashed. Granted, that board was full of jerks then.

But THIS board has never seen a troublemaker as far as I know, and should one appear he/she will certainly be given the boot very quickly!! So there should be no reason to hold back any unpleasant crossdressing-related experiences you've had from this board.

Has anyone here ever been hesitant to post an experience because it deviated from everyone else's?

[Marda]

... So there should be no reason to hold back ...
Has anyone here ever been hesitant to post ... ?

"Off Topics - Non-CD issues
Talk about anything else... "

[Lorna]

Hi Daniel,

Has anyone here ever been hesitant to post an experience because it deviated from everyone else's?

A proud and resounding NO. Your experiences with anything (whether CD related or not) do not have to mirror anyone else's here. Besides, unique experiences always make for a better read!

[DonnaT]

On the issues of leg shaving and shopping, there seems to be unanimous reporting of being able to do both without worry.

So unanimous, in fact, that I suspect groupthink.

I don't know where you got that from, Daniel. My wife won't let me shave, even though when we were first married, she shaved them for me.

There's no groupthink here, Daniel. And debate is healthy. Arguments are not.

[Virginia]

this girl has not had any unpleasant experiences I guess the closest I came was at an afternoon movie matinee. There were maybe 20 people in the theater. I like to sit toward the back so I don't have to move my head from side to side to see all the screen anyway the set up of the theater was you came in near the screen and the seats sloped up from there. Some guy near the front kept turning around and looking at me before the light wents down for the movie then when it was over did the same thing as people were leaving so I took my time getting my coat on, straightening my dress, etc. Finally, I was about the last one in the place and started out the long way and he watched me for a while come down the aisle then he walked out and when he turned and headed for the lobby, I never saw him again. Of course he would have been suprprised had he tried anything. It is interesting in that I could tell the way that he was looking (leering) at me that it was not out of curosity. Gives you a sense of how GG's feel in that situation. Of couse most GG's don't have a black belt in the martial arts or can bench press over 400 pounds either.
It was more of a learning experience!
Virginia

[Absaroka]

I will sometimes post stuff that seems against the norm here and have not had any negative reactions. Disagreement sometimes yes but that is a good thing in a discussion forum.

I haven't posted about shaving much or shopping en femme because I don't so I don't have much to contribute to the thread.

I do think that in general people often post about their positive experiences here for some reason and it may result in a skewed version of what is going on with everyone else. For example reading CJ's thread about her RLE at the end when she talked about some negative experiences I thought it was a great reality check since at 6'-3" and 250 lbs I expect I would get enough reactions shopping en femme at Wal Mart that I really don't want to attempt such a thing.

And to offer a dissenting voice that doesn't get heard that much here, I love having a full beard and have no intention of getting rid of it. Haven't said that for several months now but no one here ever objected when I did.

Andrea

[Stephanie W]

Daniel

I think a review of the various topics around the forum will show that the group mentality isn't as prevalent as you might see on other boards. The beauty of a forum such as this is that it affords everyone the opportunity to express their opinions or experiences, whether out of the ordinary or not. In general, I think most en femme experiences are positive simply because the reality (lucky for us) is that few people care or are too busy to notice. For a novice CD going out, the mere fact that no one paid the slightest bit of attention to them might be an incredibly positive experience for them. For another CD, maybe not, depending on one's perception of 'positive' (or negative for that matter).

Also, there are close to 800 registered members here and I would guess at least one third or more are too shy to ever post so perhaps there are varying experiences to be reported but are not because of the worry of the 'groupthink' mentality you described. I don't know. I would hope not because we are all individuals and should be proud of that and posting even negative experiences helps us learn from one another. In a real world, there are going to be positive and negative experiences but I would confidently predict that the vast majority are positive. This might be perceived by some as groupthink, but in fact, is simply the "reality".

Stephanie

[Merinda]

I have no problem with shopping because next year 2006 marks 20 years of purchasing femme clothing , my only problem is trying to find what I want but I certainly have no hesitation walking into the girls/womens shops.

I sometimes have a problem with shaving my arms & legs , "razor cuts " , OUCH!!

[KathyB]

Groupthink? Not for this individual. I particularly enjoy these forums because differences of opinion encourage discussion and that's healthy for everyone. That being said, I'm forewarning everyone: this is gonna get lengthy and self-absorbed. (It is my sincere hope it generates more discussion, too.)

My eyebrows are thinned, trimmed and shaped several times during the year. I wear gold hoop and stud earrings and black mascara to work whenever I feel like it for almost a year now. My annual performance appraisal just came back last week as commendable (above average). I don't believe my work appraisal is affected by my (somewhat minimum) gender expression.

I had laser hair removal last year. I was treated everywhere except my pubis and beard. I like my pubes and my beard is too grey to be epilated by the laser. I'm having electrolysis for major sections of my beard to thin and minimize the shadow, and I only have to shave my legs once a month for them to remain clean and smooth. My wife still snuggles up to me in bed every night because she loves me and needs me. I don't believe my marriage is negatively affected by my (somewhat more significant) gender expression. (No, she's not all-accepting and she never will be. But she still loves and needs me, thank goodness. )

When I shop for female things, I don't attempt to dress up and "pass". I just buy what I want in guy mode. I haven't had any problems with salespeople in any of the local major department stores. Many don't bother asking, some ask if there's anything else they can help me with, some even suggest better products I might like. I particularly like those who say "Don't forget your receipt, so you can return it if it doesn't fit or you don't like it." I believe today's salespeople are trained to understand that a sale is a sale and one customer's money is just as good as any others. Yes, there are cashiers who are uncomfortable, but I've never encountered one who was rude. When I see discomfort, I either attempt to complete the transaction with discretion as quickly as possible, or suggest that maybe another cashier might be more comfortable handling my sale.

If there's one overwhelming example of groupthink I've seen and personally experienced in the TV/CD/TG community for too many years, it's the tons of fear and self-loathing we've been conditioned to believe since childhood. The fear of discovery, the fear of ourselves, the fear of what everyone else will think. The self-loathing pushed on us by society, heaped on us by religion, and oftentimes piled on us by our own family.

That kind of groupthink is negative and destructive. It causes us to waste our psychic and emotional energies by questioning, hating, despising and continually hiding ourselves. It can cause us to drink, to take drugs, and it can cause situational depression. In my case, I lived through more than 30 years of this before I finally began to accept and respect who and what I was. Thirty years of counter-productive thought, divided emotions and energy wasted hiding.

I don't wish that on anyone, ever, in their lives. I hope our discussions (and sometimes courteous disagreements) here help young people understand and love who they are, much earlier in their lives.

I knew what I was and what I wanted when I was only seven years old. Unfortunately, the year was 1965. There was no internet, there hadn't been any Stonewall riots, and Dr. John Money's John/Joan case hadn't started. It doesn't have to be that way anymore. It shouldn't be that way anymore. If the positive attitudes and constructive discussions we have here help others, I don't see that as groupthink. I see it as a valuable resource.

(Thanks for letting me vent and ramble, everyone.)

[Curly(SO)]

I don't see any Groupthink here. On the whole, I think people are confident to post their experiences, negative or otherwise.

On the shopping thing, I haven't witnessed any negative experiences, myself. (I have worked in stores in the past). From my experience, people may look twice at a CDer, but then carry on with their business as it is of no consequence to them. I certainly had no problem serving CDers and never saw any other assistant treat them any differently to any other customer, to be honest it was a non-event to us!
If I sold women's clothes to a man en drab, I would have always assumed he was buying for a wife, girlfriend, daughter etc. That was before I was introduced to the world of CDing.)

Leg shaving...that varies...some SO's don't seem to mind, some do, from what I've seen on the forum. As for the the General Public, I don't think many eyebrows would be raised in this part of the world. Body hair removal seems to very fashionable amongst men, here, so it wouldn't make a man stand out as CDer if he had no leg hair.

Zippy,

If there's one overwhelming example of groupthink I've seen and personally experienced in the TV/CD/TG community for too many years, it's the tons of fear and self-loathing we've been conditioned to believe since childhood. The fear of discovery, the fear of ourselves, the fear of what everyone else will think. The self-loathing pushed on us by society, heaped on us by religion, and oftentimes piled on us by our own family.

Very well said. I talk positively whenever I can about CDing (I mean, when I'm out and about, not just here) to try in my own very small way, to change negative attitudes.

Daniel, don't ever be afraid to talk about any negative experiences you may have, I cannot imagine anyone would have a problem with it! I would assume you'd get nothing but support. We are all from different walks of life so your experience may be different from someone living in another part of the world, in different circumstances.

Love,
Curly(SO)

[Kyra]

Zippy!

Very nicely said!


Hugs,
Kyra

[Carolynn]

Hi Daniel and everyone.
Don't know about "groupthink", but I do admit to holding back or deleting without posting some responses occasionally. I do this for a couple of very simple reasons.

I may feel others have already fully addressed the topic and my contribution would be in the arena of "me too".

I am not, nor have I ever been married, so topics dealing with interspousal relationships I am hardly qualified to comment on. If I have anything to say, it is supportive and sympathetic.

I am TS, in transition. I believe that TS and CDs have a lot in common, more than it sometimes seems, especially for those of both groups who are still closeted to family as well as friends and employers. The motivation for crossdressing is different, though not well understood by either group at first. Most MtF TSs and CDs have shared cycles of purges, binges and taking mom or sisters clothes. I understand the guilt, frustration, etc. felt by the young and the not so young CD; it is shared often with TSs.

That's one of the positive things I see in todays youth. They have the information earlier, they have gender bender sub-cultural icons, greater acceptance among many of their peers (if they do not live in a poverty stricken area or among a "macho" subculture), and they seem to be more assertive. At least among the kids from larger cities.

And among the people posting on this board, we have people who are transgenderists, non-op TS, others who are questioning their gender identities as a part of their journey to whereever they are going, one or two who are gay and prefer a female presentation, and many who are het. CD and very satisfied with that status, some in accepting marriages, some not. In other words, a usually outspoken, intelligent, diverse group of people with different motivations and backgrounds. "Groupthink" possible here, but difficult IMHO. Sure there have been some hurt feelings and people withdrawing from the forum. Usually the topics leading to this have little to do with our shared experience, and it is less frequent here than about any other forum I have been a member of. And we are all the poorer when someone withdraws.

Love, Carolynn

[Jeannie]

When I post or respond to one I just say what's on my mind at the moment. I don't feel pressured here to conform.
Virginia. When I read your post about the movie theater experience I thought to myself... If I saw you in a theater I would be checking you out also. I would wait until everyone left and walked up to you and said
"Hey cutie? I would just love to ....
... find out where you bought those pumps! " Fooled you Virginia,didn't I? If you ever go to movies alone again just call me and I'll come with you and protect you. At 5'5" and 136 no one ever hassles me in a dark theater. They can't see me! Big Hugs!

Love
Jeannie

[Kerri]

Really! How could you?

Up here in Aberdeen I feel sufficiently detached from you all to freely state my case without fear.There are times throughout my life where some forethought and a bit of discretion would have gone a long way, and prevented me from making an arse of myself.

I never follow the pack!
You wanted opinions on shaving legs and shopping.
Well I weigh 225lbs and am six foot tall in my seamed stockings. I look 100% male regardless of what I wear.

On the shopping front. What do you want to buy? I have bought and tried on everything imaginable. I have been arrested by the police, called by a Store Manager when I shopped for a bridal gown in Aberdeen.
I have been the centre of a loud angry crowd of women gathered round the cubicle when I tried on an evening dress in a boutique in Oxford Street, London.
Did it stop me from shopping NO! But it did make me ask twice before trying something on "Are you sure this is OK?"

On the Shaving front, what is there to say? Its purely personal circumstance, nothing else. Its not rocket science! Just be careful where you point the razor when you reach the top!

Part from that never ask me to agree with you, If my daughter says black I say white,cos I have the devil in me.

Take care!

Hugs Kerri

[Jamie Ann]

On the issues of leg shaving and shopping, there seems to be unanimous reporting of being able to do both without worry.

So unanimous, in fact, that I suspect groupthink. Groupthink is when people are afraid to say what they really want to say because it deviates from what the rest of the group thinks.

Let’s say “without unrealistic worry” rather than “without worry.” Neither leg-shaving nor shopping is a huge issue for me, although I sometimes take precautions to avoid any problem. In the wintertime, there is little way that anyone could even know whether my legs are shaved. When I use a public locker room at the YMCA—which I do from time to time—I typically go at a time when not too many other people are there, and I take my shower and leave much like others who need to get in, take a short workout, and get back to work in an hour or so. No one has ever said anything about my “hairless” appearance—I don’t think most men pay much attention.

As for shopping, I do most of my shopping in guy-mode. Men buy all kinds of feminine clothing and products for their wives or girlfriends. We all give gifts to our female relatives or friends. Especially around Christmas or Valentine’s Day, store clerks must sell women’s items to men 20 times a day, so they are unlikely to be rattled by such an event. I try to be relaxed and matter-of-fact in buying what I want. No store has ever given me any serious flack.

I don’t think I am influenced much by “groupthink” or any related kind of opinion conformity. I cannot speak for others, but I think that I have been crossdressing for long enough that much of the anxiety is gone. Others like me will have arrived at much the same conclusions, but that is not because anyone is conforming to what they see as the “politically correct” set of answers.