The Old "Reverse Situation" Argument

[Loretta Ann]

Well CJ,

You never cease to amaze me at how you arrive at your conclusions. If this board is not part of the real world then what do you call it? A fantasy? an escape? Perhaps denial? A place where we can escape the realities of life? God forbid that we should ever suggest, even if only implicitly, that who we are or what we do is wrong or repulsive.

And, truly, the last thing we need on this board is another person to suggest, even if only implicitly, that who we are or what we do is wrong or repulsive. We get enough of that out there in the so-called "real" world.

Gosh any length to create a place where we can not be anything less than perfect hey?

You won't find me participating in that kind of stuff. It is quite alright to sit on your pity potty from time to time, but there comes a time when it becomes wise to flush.

The self loafer that you have taken the liberty of labeling me as, is simply flushing the undesirable things from my past. I loath or cringe at a lot of things that I did in my past life that I am now ashamed of and would not, could not do them again, because of where I now am as the result of maturating.

That in no way is meant to be misconstrued as meaning I don't love myself. I accept the fact that I did the best that I could...given the circumstances at that time in my life. I do not like who I was...That does not mean I don't like who I am now. And that does not mean that I beat myself up over who I once was. I love a part of who I once was, What I once was has led to what I am now. What I am now will lead to what I will be a few years from now, and I love that.

all purges are born, at least in part, from this need to split off this essential part of who we are and throw it away as far from us as possible (as though it were a sinful member of our body).

Let me reword that one for you correctly.
All purges are born, at least in part, from this need to split off the unessential parts of who we are/were and throw it away as far from us as possible (as though it were a sinful member of our body). It is called flushing. One can not move beyond where they once were unless that kind of thing takes place.

Growth is impossible without that taking place, and may well be the ingredient that is responsible for your current situation with your father. One ether loathes the undesirable things they did in there past or they loath them in others. It is called projecting ones faults upon others. An exercise that you appear to have no problem occasionally indulging in.

If you cannot love yourself and accept yourself, it's mighty difficult to love and accept other people.

Something leads you to think that I do not love and accept myself ??? Hey I am over joyed at what has happened in my life recently. Do you know how good it feels to feel like a man for the first time in my life? Do you know what it feels like to really feel good in my own skin? And you think I don't love myself?

I wonder just how good you feel about yourself when you visit your father and need to leave part of yourself at home? Do you know how good it feels not to have to do that any more?

I think you need to give yourself a break sweetie, and not be so hard on yourself. I have shared with you what has happened in my life. Some of it may be useful to someone. But one thing is clear unless one is able to see that cross dressing could be less than right That indeed it is the cause of much turmoil in ones life. You will never experience what I am experiencing.

I do endorse reaching a place where you are comfortable being a cross dresser, but not at the expense of it being anything less than unacceptable to some.

The intent of my last post was to point to the fact that some people find it repulsive, and as long as that is the situation education will not be enough. However you appear to be unable to leave it at that and incorporate that bit of information into your life for your personal benefit. So be it.

Your father did say that some artillery might be landing in your neighborhood.

[Stephanie W]

This has been an interesting thread and I've really enjoyed reading the wonderfully articulated responses from some of the posters (i.e. Sally, CJ) so nothing I could add would do this thread justice.

I will admit to nodding my head as I began reading Maggie's initial posting as we've all run across that old argument before but that reaction gave way to a better and deeper understanding once I had finished reading Sally's post because it made so much more sense to me. That's the beauty of a forum such as this because keeping an open mind allows us to be perpetually receptive to learning and understanding new things, and in turn, it can be very uplifting, and I think, bring its own untold emotional rewards.

Loretta, reading CJ's response to you, I never felt she was showing any personal disrespect to you or your opinions. On the contrary, while she may not agree with some of your perceptions, I thought she responded in a respectful and courteous manner. I have been following your recent journey with interest and do wish you well in your new found freedom from your 'repulsive crossdressing'. Please forgive my scepticism that it will last as I've yet to meet anyone who has 'jumped the proverbial fence' so to speak, but if you're to be the first, more power to you. Regardless, I will certainly keep my open mind that you will achieve your inner peace wherever you may find it. I really mean that. That said, an open mind should go both ways. Perhaps you can understand that not all of us find our crossdressing to be repulsive. In fact I couldn't imagine my life without it. Would I ever want to wish it away, not on your life. Sure, I wrestled with it as I was growing up, but through knowledge and continued learning, I came to accept that part of me and gradually realized that it was an 'essential' part of who I am and not something to be flushed down a toilet or discarded. Repulsion is now the furthest thing from my mind. I don't expect you to understand that and that's OK. We are all different and I respect everyone's choice to be who they are, no matter what path in life they have to follow.

I suppose the only thing I'm having trouble understanding about your newly achieved freedom is your desire to still want to participate in subject matter that you find abhorrent. Unless I'm missing something, I would have assumed you wouldn't have wanted to look back but just kept on running. Or is it because you simply aren't ready to leave a part of you behind? I don't know. If it's to share your experience on the other side and give 'hope' to others, then that's very admirable. Just try not to feel rejected if those folks are much happier in their CD world.

Stephanie

[CJ]

Hi all,

Thanks, Stephanie; that was well-said.

I'm not emotionally close enough to Loretta to actually have an opinion one way or the other regarding what she does or doesn't do with her life (and she'd be the first to confirm that she extends the same "courtesy" to others).

What I do care about is this (and it's something Loretta repeatedly fails to understand): the forum is a place where people come for support, for community, for exchange, and, yes, for some soothing balm they can apply to their battered souls. As such, it is a "protected environment"; it is a "break," however brief or temporary, from the "real world"; it is a "safehouse" where they can let it all hang out (uh, figuratively speaking, of course) and not be thought abnormal, freakish, or repulsive. They get this kind of manure from "out there" often enough as it is.

Now, I know that Loretta believes that support doesn't include approval. It's a very wise way of looking at things and it's one of the better ways we can help a person... in the long run. But not initially. Initially, we must absolutely adopt a completely non-judgmental stance, however counter-productive we believe this to be.

Someone who comes here in the throes of despair ("razor blade in hand," as we say) has no need to find crossdressing further equated with repulsiveness. In fact, it's the very last thing they need.

All purges are born, at least in part, from this need to split off the unessential parts of who we are/were and throw it away as far from us as possible (as though it were a sinful member of our body). It is called flushing. One can not move beyond where they once were unless that kind of thing takes place.

Is this the advice you would give a newcomer to the forum, Loretta? To someone still struggling to come to grips with this part of who they are? This essential part?

If you find this is not (or is no longer, or has never been) an essential part of who you are and if, truly, you are happy being a man in a male body, then I submit you're frequenting the wrong forum. You might find it more fruitful to go elsewhere.

No hard feelings, no disrespect, no judgment. Just a simple (and easily forgiven) case of mistaken affiliation.

By the way, Loretta, it's good that you chose to highlight the troubled relationship I have with my father because family ties are precisely the kind of issue that crossdressers will have to deal with in their lives. Far from being a liability, my relationship with my father is a damned fine occasion for both he and I to learn something about ourselves and each other on the road to healing and self-acceptance. That is maturity.

I wish you luck.

CJ

[Loretta Ann]

Hi Stephanie,

I do not take issue with a post like yours, you were very respectful, and I respect you for that. I do not respect someone attempting to label me. That is akin to calling me a lier, and when that happens you can expect some artillery.

My cross dressing was not 'repulsive cross dressing'. I enjoyed it every bit as much as you do., and I encourage you all to get the most out of it that you can. My cross dressing became repulsive once I walked away from it, and was able to experience things I never was able to experience before in my own skin. And that happened after months of experiencing less and less of a benefit from wearing women's clothes.

It is simply a situation where something new and better has replaced what used to be there. If that were not the situation, I would still be dressing. One does not aspire to exchange Gold for Silver.

Please forgive my scepticism that it will last as I've yet to meet anyone who has 'jumped the proverbial fence' so to speak, but if you're to be the first, more power to you.

No I am not the first... Others have attained that on this very forum, and I played a part in chasing her away. Cathy Anderson did not have the need to cross dress for a much longer period than I before she stopped posting here. But I do understand your scepticism, and I do not have a problem with that.

Perhaps you can understand that not all of us find our crossdressing to be repulsive. In fact I couldn't imagine my life without it. Would I ever want to wish it away, not on your life. Sure, I wrestled with it as I was growing up, but through knowledge and continued learning, I came to accept that part of me and gradually realized that it was an 'essential' part of who I am and not something to be flushed down a toilet or discarded. Repulsion is now the furthest thing from my mind. I don't expect you to understand that and that's OK.

I do understand that...Been there done that too.

[Loretta Ann]

CJ,

Thank you but luck is something I do not need. I have something much better than that. that has given me the power to travel the root I am traveling.

Initially, we must absolutely adopt a completely non-judgmental stance, however counter-productive we believe this to be.

CJ. initially a person needs that with one or two people that they respect, not every one. I am very thankful that everyone did not provide me with what you claim is necessary, when I came to them in the throes of despair with murder on my mind and ("razor blade in hand.) Had they done so (hind sight tells me) I would not have made it out of there. Been there CJ.

Is this the advice you would give a newcomer to the forum, Loretta? To someone still struggling to come to grips with this part of who they are? This essential part?

Absolutely...I would tell them something like that needs to take place in their life, but I would not do that without someone like you holding their hand.

I do not have the energy to argue with you CJ. We have covered this same ground before. Suffice it to say that your and my interpretation of maturity are not to be found on the same page.

[CJ]

Loretta,

It's pretty simple: if you do not clean up your act and try to find a way to be supportive of people on this forum, I will have you banned.

CJ

[Loretta Ann]

So whats taking you so long already, Why don't you just get on with it? I'll not be returning to see how long it takes you.

[Elizabeth]

Thank you CJ,

I brought this up in another thread. I flat out asked Loretta what her intentions are here. She refused to answer.

I do not beleive there is one of us who has not felt repulsed by our dressing. That is the very nature of all purges. But I can not agree with Lorestta's self rightious view that purging or leaving crossdressing behind, is either necessary or useful.

She has given up on the idea of self acceptance and has moved back to condemnation and abstaintia, both of which anyone who has arrived here, has undoubtedly had thier fair share of already.

I agree with Stephanie here. I do not beleive this is Loretta's last purge and I have told her so. I also don't beleive it is proper for her to remain here and try to make others feel as if they need to find a way to leave crossdressing behind, as the ultimate goal. It is self-rightious, condescending and contrary to the stated mission of this forum.

Loretta, I love you, but I beleive you are misguided. I beleive you have not moved beyond crossdressing, because I honestly do not beleive it is possilbe. You may leave the act behind, but when you look back, you will find what you left was an unfulfilled part of yourself that you can not get back. It is just my beleif and of course only you can know what is the best path for you, but I beleive you are displaying classic "purge" behavior, which all of us have seen and experienced ourselves. Good luck to you, but I do not beleive your pressense here, with your current attitude is in line with the stated mission of this forum.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Amelie-Laveau]

[quote="CJ"]

Someone who comes here in the throes of despair ("razor blade in hand," as we say) has no need to find crossdressing further equated with repulsiveness. In fact, it's the very last thing they need.

I really can't add anything of value to this thread, I never had a spouse, so I don't know how spouses react.

But I just wanted to comment on this part of CJ's post. Cd's, Tg's, Ts's all have similar demons and forums like this one is sometimes the last or only hope for sanity, or of support. There is so much anger out there in the world, so much hatred, one wonders if being a T-girl is worth the pain. But because of people like CJ, and the people on this forum, waking up the next day isn't going to be another nightmare.

I don't post very much, but I do read the threads.
Thanks and sorry for going off topic.

[Virginia]

Amelie,
Hon, you did not go off topic - in a very short, eleoquent statement said what we are about here!
Thanks for being there for a lot of your/our sisters!
Love ya,
Virginia

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

For what it's worth, someone who's opinion I trust says she knows several people who've quit. But you don't hear about them because they just fade from the scene.

My experience has been that those who make grand pronouncements about quitting usually are trying to convince themselves that they really are. (And yes, several of them had a tendency to continue staying in online groups even after saying they'd quit.) In the cases I've seen, these folks typically were some of the most self-loathing. Unfortunately, they often also seemed to redirect their inner anger outward.

I don't think "support" mean inherently repeating some of myths and platitudes that I think are a bit too common in the TG community. But it does mean realizing that one needs to recognize that one needs to deal gently with people who've faced "manure out there."

[CJ]

Hi all,

Good post, Marlena. Thanks.

You're right; there are a lot of platitudes out there, a lot of seemingly non-nourishing pablum (and I'll be the first to admit that I can dish it out with the best of them). But the main characteristic of such platitudes is that they are, precisely, a gentle introduction to the meaning and import of transgenderedness in our own lives.

Many of us have finally reached a point where we're willing (even though we're perhaps more or less able) to come to terms with our crossdressing. This implies that we've examined our lives, that we're at least somewhat familiar with transgenderedness in the lives of others (for example, through forums such as this one), and that we've understood that this won't usually go away. As Loretta would say, we've "been there, done that." But the fact is, many who come to this board (or any other similar forum) haven't "been there, done that." And they're often very fragile, emotionally, when they come here. Being told that what they do is repulsive to some (even if that's true) or that who they are is something rather less than acceptable to some (even if that's true) will not help them in any way when they're starting out on their own journey of self-discovery.

Look at it this way. We read stories and fairy tales to children as a matter of course. Obviously, one of the central aims of doing so is to instill a love of reading but, over and above that, the platitudes and homilies and morals and messages and clichés often found in children's stories, tales, and fables serve to give the child a clearer sense of the shape of the moral and psychological world in which he or she lives. Were we to go back and read some of these stories, ourselves, as adults (and I'll admit that I do so, on occasion , for the pure pleasure of it), of course we'd think, "eh! this is baby stuff--I know all this already! Been there, done that." But a child hasn't. A child is just starting out in her discovery of the worlds around and within her.

A crossdresser who's only recently begun exploring the meaning of crossdressing in his own life is (regardless of his chronological age) like the child in the paragraph above. I don't mean this in a pejorative way; at some point in our lives, we"re all "babes in the woods" when it comes to the understanding we have of our own desires (and, yes, many of us still are "babes") and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's par for the course. What we need is a gentle intro to the art of being who we are, not fire and brimstone. That can come later, once we're equipped with a stronger sense of our own worth and with a better ability to defend ourselves based on that strength.

A good example: we had a new member here several months ago, a young one, who, in one of his very first posts, jokingly referred to having "borrowed" (his quotes) clothing from his mother. Has any one of us here never done something like this? or never felt the urge to? Well, another member came crashing down on him like a ton of bricks, accusing him of being a thief. That new member never posted another thing after that. Is this the kind of thing we mean by "support"? even when we know it's wrong to take from another what isn't ours? I doubt it.

Now, just to get back to Maggie's original points (because they're good ones), we'd probably do well, all of us, to keep in mind that, just as we once were (and, again, sometimes still are) "babes in the woods" regarding our crossdressing, well, so are our SO's when confronted with the fact (if not always the reality) of it. For some SO's, it'll be a lengthy process for them to come to grips with this, again, essential, aspect of who we are. My Husband Wears My Clothes, for example, is the equivalent of a children's book for these women only recently familiar with this side of their husband or boyfriend. Dixie's web site is another example. Some SO's may never come to grips with it. And that's quite alright, too. Especially if they've at least made a valiant effort to understand.

As Maggie pointed out, yes, it can be terribly frustrating to be partnered to a non-participating or non-accepting SO; it can be just as frustrating for an SO to be partnered to a man who crossdresses. Like it or not, in this world, as things now stand, the onus is on us to provide such an SO with a mental environment where patience, understanding, gentleness, and lovingkindness can "inform" the relationship. That an SO will be distraught at the revelation is anything but weird. That she'll not like the situation, and will try to defend herself, is to be expected. The only thing we can truly change, here, is our own attitude towards our SO's predicament (because, again, like it or not, it is a predicament).

There are no miracle cures, here, nor any easy solutions. Be fair, regardless of where your SO is on her journey toward a decision (whatever that decision turns out to be), be kind, and, above all, be firm in your resolve to be true to who you are. As we've witnessed on this very forum, things can go any which way; some have become closer, others have divorced. Either way, if an SO and a CD remain faithful to their own selves (and this doesn't mean being selfish, it means being true to who you are so that you can be true to others), the likelihood that they'll both find some measure of happiness is greater than if one continuously plays "power games" with the other's mind.

Yes, it's sometimes a "dog eat dog" world, out there. But, if we're willing, it can also be a, um, "cat rub cat," world, too.

Love,
CJ

[Virginia]

Here Kitty, Kitty, Kitty!!!!
Love ya,
Virginia

[SilverLady(SO)]

I have been following this thread with great interest and, with the exception of LA's very antagonistic posts (which I have always associated with her and which we can do quite well without!), I have found the discussion to be quite enlightening and educational. So to those members I must say thank you, very much - you help to make this forum not only a place of love, peace, and harmony, but also one of learning, understanding, and growing - for everyone.

Marlena - I absolutely love your new avatar!!

CJ - Would you *please* show us your beautiful, smiling face again?


Meow, meow, purrrrr, purrrrr, purrrrr!!



- SL

[CJ]

Hi all,

Heh. I figured that "cat rub cat" comment would get me in trouble.



About the avatar, I'm working on a new pic. Just give me a day or two; I'm hunting through my photos. I'll be back. I promise.

Love,
CJ