Hi all,
In Absaroka's thread, I Told My Sponsor, mention is made yet again of the "private vs. secret" debate. I'm curious to see what some of you here think about the possibility of crossdressing (or of transgenderism, generally) remaining private. Keep in mind that I'm not looking for "oughts" (as in, "it ought to, or should, remain private" or "it ought to, or should, be out in the open"); I'm looking to see if you think it can remain private.
Personally, I doubt it can. The thing about gender is that it's in large part a social construction; those around us have helped "build" our sense of what's masculine and what's feminine and we cannot fail to reflect back to others (however much we try to) who we are as (trans)gendered beings. For instance, it seems to make little sense to me to want to pass as a woman if there's nobody there to see me as such, you know? (And, no, the mirror doesn't count as it's merely a stand-in for another human being's gaze.) Notice, here, that I'm not talking about any kind of fetishistic transvestism (underdressing or wearing silky undies for sexual pleasure); I'm talking about gender expression and self-definition--our sense of ourselves as masculine- or feminine-identified persons--and the behaviours we exhibit that result from that expression.
What do you all think?
Love,
CJ
Private vs. Secret
Moderators: KimberlyS, CathyAnn
-
CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
-
DonnaT
- Miss Great Goddess
- Posts: 8222
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:04 am
- Location: No. Virginia
I voted it was possible. (I agree)
In fact, I've heard from a few SOs who can't figure out why there BF or DH didn't want them to see it.
One BF went so far as to stop the relationship when the SO purchased a pair of panties for him to show she was accepting.
So, even though their CDing is no longer secret, some want to keep it as a private part of their lives even when they have accepting SOs.
In fact, I've heard from a few SOs who can't figure out why there BF or DH didn't want them to see it.
One BF went so far as to stop the relationship when the SO purchased a pair of panties for him to show she was accepting.
So, even though their CDing is no longer secret, some want to keep it as a private part of their lives even when they have accepting SOs.
DonnaT
-
Paulie
- Miss Emerald Goddess
- Posts: 224
- Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:30 pm
- Location: Colorado
-
Anita
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3068
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:55 pm
- Location: Burlingame, CA (San Francisco Bay area)
Hi CJ—
I see that this is such an emotional issue for me that I have to just zip the mouth. This is one of those issues where the my vision of what I would like the world to be collides head on with how the world actually appears to be.
The short answer is: obviously, you can keep it private in a physical sense—that no one ever sees you. Emotionally and spiritually, I don’t think you can ever really keep it private. But that is an irrational statement that we can never prove or disprove, and this is not Hot Topics. So I have to vote, “not sure,” and that’s not really accurate. I am glad that I am working daily to create the world I want to see, no matter what the “other” world is doing.
I see that this is such an emotional issue for me that I have to just zip the mouth. This is one of those issues where the my vision of what I would like the world to be collides head on with how the world actually appears to be.
The short answer is: obviously, you can keep it private in a physical sense—that no one ever sees you. Emotionally and spiritually, I don’t think you can ever really keep it private. But that is an irrational statement that we can never prove or disprove, and this is not Hot Topics. So I have to vote, “not sure,” and that’s not really accurate. I am glad that I am working daily to create the world I want to see, no matter what the “other” world is doing.
-
Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3344
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
I guess we have to do a lot of exploring of what our words mean here. If you are trying to express yourself as not the gender you seem to be to the public then by definition the differentness become public and not private. On the other hand maybe we are not doing this and so it can remain private. Or we express our gender in ways other than our appearance. This can be a huge subject.
Absaroka
Absaroka
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
-
Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
CJ, honey what was it you called me " A big Linguisic Cow!" or something to that effect -then SL said it was you referencing yourself - whatever! I love you anyway.
Semantic, definitions, understanding, preception is reality!
I believe that as crossdressers we are all on this rather lengthy continuium. I can see a lot of my sisters here are at various point of acceptance and understanding. Some don't see this as a "gift" others are........... well let's not get into definitions or labels.
But yes I think that there are those who are at different places on the contininum. And regardless of where they may be I think that most who want to hide this from everyone else, the operative word being "want" to hide it can!!!!!! They will go to great extemes to hide it, to do whatever is necessary to not "get caught!" And many - many that we will never know about will take it to the grave with them!
Can we hide it? I say it can, has and will be accomplished!
Virginia
Semantic, definitions, understanding, preception is reality!
I believe that as crossdressers we are all on this rather lengthy continuium. I can see a lot of my sisters here are at various point of acceptance and understanding. Some don't see this as a "gift" others are........... well let's not get into definitions or labels.
But yes I think that there are those who are at different places on the contininum. And regardless of where they may be I think that most who want to hide this from everyone else, the operative word being "want" to hide it can!!!!!! They will go to great extemes to hide it, to do whatever is necessary to not "get caught!" And many - many that we will never know about will take it to the grave with them!
Can we hide it? I say it can, has and will be accomplished!
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
-
Jeannie
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:19 pm
- Location: Connecticut
You gals are funny.
Never call a woman a cow! 
I have to say one thing ladies. After being on this forum since last year I had great fun. The only thing is that most here take themselves so seriously. Ladies. Remember one thing.Most are men in dresses. If that can be taken seriously then George W. Bush is a MENSA member! Enjoy your life. Whatever it may be. Are we all off center? Absolutely! But then again everyone is out of they're freaking minds! That's life! Hugs
Love
Jeannie
PS. Answer one question for me ladies concerning the picture gallery. The majority of responses are to pictures that are sexy and show lots of leg. That is a typical male reaction. Are you a wolf in sheeps clothing or a sheep in wolfs clothing? There is a differance. Trust me. I know and only a handful on this forum will understand.
I have to say one thing ladies. After being on this forum since last year I had great fun. The only thing is that most here take themselves so seriously. Ladies. Remember one thing.Most are men in dresses. If that can be taken seriously then George W. Bush is a MENSA member! Enjoy your life. Whatever it may be. Are we all off center? Absolutely! But then again everyone is out of they're freaking minds! That's life! HugsLove
Jeannie
PS. Answer one question for me ladies concerning the picture gallery. The majority of responses are to pictures that are sexy and show lots of leg. That is a typical male reaction. Are you a wolf in sheeps clothing or a sheep in wolfs clothing? There is a differance. Trust me. I know and only a handful on this forum will understand.
-
CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
I guess I should try to make myself clearer, as Absaroka rightly pointed out was needed. This is what I meant: even if you successfully prevent anyone from ever seeing you dressed (as in Donna's example), is it really possible for this aspect of who you are to go undetected by others, especially by those people who are close to you? Will the irritability, anxiety, and depression that come from suppressing so essential a facet of your personality never show? I think not. I think they will show! And Donna's example is a case in point; that the gentleman in question preferred terminating the relationship rather than bringing his vulnerabilities out into the open and take his first few hesitant steps on a road to healing is exactly a way in which crossdressing cannot be kept private.
Of course, as Virginia says, we're all different so it may be that this is a moot point. (By the way, Virginia, I never called you anything of the sort!
I was referring to the subject of semantics itself as a beast--which it is; do you seriously think I lack so much sense that I'd go around calling professional powerlifters names? 
I hope not! 
)
I guess the point of this whole thread was to suggest that who we are, deep down inside, will always come out in some form or other, no matter how hard we try to "keep it inside." When we try to suppress who we "truly" are, pressure builds and, soon, we're bursting at the seams. Crossdressing is not just dressing as a woman, it can also be an "unacknowledged self" falling into the traps that are despair-induced alcohol and drug addictions or, again, as in Donna's example, that is the inability to trust and to be intimate with another human being.
I think this is what KathyGG meant, oh! so many moons ago, when she posted something to the effect that she found that crossdresser attractive who'd managed to at least set foot on the road to resolving some of these deeper issues. By choice, she wanted to be partnered to a CD, but not to one "bursting at the seams" because of his inability--for whatever reason--to cope with who he is (a symptom of which is his absolute desire to keep this secret to himself).
Wearing pink satin panties can be kept a private thing (and it probably should--it's absolutely nobody's business what kind of underwear you prefer) but showing people your deeper self is the hallmark of authentic contact with others and cannot be bypassed if you're looking to establish genuine friendship and intimacy with people. This very forum is a good example. We feel good here because we know we're relating to each other "from the center of our beings," so to speak. And, crossdresser or not, the center of our beings--whether serene or tormented or (with a wink in Jeannie's direction) wonderfully wacky--will always find a way to the surface in our relationships with others. It's inevitable. It cannot be hidden. It cannot be kept private. That's all I was trying to say.
Anita,
You left me on my hunger! I want to know how you feel about the intersection of "the two worlds." I really do. Post in the Hot Topics, if you must. I, for one, will follow you there.
Love,
CJ
I guess I should try to make myself clearer, as Absaroka rightly pointed out was needed. This is what I meant: even if you successfully prevent anyone from ever seeing you dressed (as in Donna's example), is it really possible for this aspect of who you are to go undetected by others, especially by those people who are close to you? Will the irritability, anxiety, and depression that come from suppressing so essential a facet of your personality never show? I think not. I think they will show! And Donna's example is a case in point; that the gentleman in question preferred terminating the relationship rather than bringing his vulnerabilities out into the open and take his first few hesitant steps on a road to healing is exactly a way in which crossdressing cannot be kept private.
Of course, as Virginia says, we're all different so it may be that this is a moot point. (By the way, Virginia, I never called you anything of the sort!
I was referring to the subject of semantics itself as a beast--which it is; do you seriously think I lack so much sense that I'd go around calling professional powerlifters names? I hope not! )I guess the point of this whole thread was to suggest that who we are, deep down inside, will always come out in some form or other, no matter how hard we try to "keep it inside." When we try to suppress who we "truly" are, pressure builds and, soon, we're bursting at the seams. Crossdressing is not just dressing as a woman, it can also be an "unacknowledged self" falling into the traps that are despair-induced alcohol and drug addictions or, again, as in Donna's example, that is the inability to trust and to be intimate with another human being.
I think this is what KathyGG meant, oh! so many moons ago, when she posted something to the effect that she found that crossdresser attractive who'd managed to at least set foot on the road to resolving some of these deeper issues. By choice, she wanted to be partnered to a CD, but not to one "bursting at the seams" because of his inability--for whatever reason--to cope with who he is (a symptom of which is his absolute desire to keep this secret to himself).
Wearing pink satin panties can be kept a private thing (and it probably should--it's absolutely nobody's business what kind of underwear you prefer) but showing people your deeper self is the hallmark of authentic contact with others and cannot be bypassed if you're looking to establish genuine friendship and intimacy with people. This very forum is a good example. We feel good here because we know we're relating to each other "from the center of our beings," so to speak. And, crossdresser or not, the center of our beings--whether serene or tormented or (with a wink in Jeannie's direction) wonderfully wacky--will always find a way to the surface in our relationships with others. It's inevitable. It cannot be hidden. It cannot be kept private. That's all I was trying to say.
Anita,
You left me on my hunger! I want to know how you feel about the intersection of "the two worlds." I really do. Post in the Hot Topics, if you must. I, for one, will follow you there.
Love,
CJ
Last edited by CJ on Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Jaye
- Miss Golden Goddess
- Posts: 585
- Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 3:24 pm
- Location: Tallahassee, FL
Re: You gals are funny.
I, for one, am a wolf in wolf's clothing, whether I'm in drab, femme or whatever. While I am not exactly in your face about my crossdressing, I no longer go to extraordinary lengths to conceal it. Sometimes folk notice my longer nails, or shaved extremities or other details, and if they ask, I tell 'em. I created more stress in the past when I dissembled or mumbled or made excuses for myself. I tried to keep my crossdressing "private", and nearly killed myself in the process. Now that I'm open about it, I have time and energy to worry about more important stuff.Jeannie wrote:Are you a wolf in sheeps clothing or a sheep in wolfs clothing? There is a differance. Trust me. I know and only a handful on this forum will understand.
The most common form of despair comes from not being who you are. - Soren Kierkegaard
-
Jeannie
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:19 pm
- Location: Connecticut
Hey Jaye.
Since coming out in the last few months to everyone I know and letting the chips fall where they may I've never been happier with myself or more comfortable in my own skin after 55 long years. Life's problems are still there but I'm not hating myself for the first time in my life. My kids(19 and 22) know about me and are great. I'm so lucky. Hugs.
Love
Jeannie
Since coming out in the last few months to everyone I know and letting the chips fall where they may I've never been happier with myself or more comfortable in my own skin after 55 long years. Life's problems are still there but I'm not hating myself for the first time in my life. My kids(19 and 22) know about me and are great. I'm so lucky. Hugs.
Love
Jeannie
-
Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
CJ, honey, you know I was kidding and I can only claim " a blond moment."
Jeannie, bless you sweetheart, you are still a great ambassador for us!
I have to agree with the premise that yes those you are truly CD and try to hide it can bring about internal tourment to themselves. I would only hope that they find themselves and find the balance in their lives.
Now I can only speak for myself and the results that my gift has brought me. In a lot of areas, during my day to day activities, the feminine aspect comes out - now in a lot of situations - automatically, and it is beautiful! The looking into people's eyes, the actually listening to them and what they have to say, the reaching out and gently touching them on the hand or arm. Little things that women do automatically and that shock the receiver in a positive way with the results of -"hey, I like that person, (maybe not sure why) they are really cool!" the fact that we actually saw them, recognized them as a fellow human being, listened to them and Holy Cow! actually touched them! I tell you it is amazing to watch the reaction and in some situations I did not even notice I had done anything until I noticed their reaction! It is beautiful.
When Virginia is dressed and we are out, I have had numerous people tell me I am different, my mannerisms change to more femininie, my physical manifestations become a lot more feminine, personality wise, I think there is even more femininty and that I try to hold on to in every day life! Women as such marvelous creatures and to be able to emulate them in their gentleness, love, concern, caring. empathy, what a blessing.
Virginia has given me the strength and understanding to even not be mad at my - soon to be ex! - Yes she was the one who would not even try to accept or even learn or understand and according to her and her attorney as stated in the divorce papers I am an "insane pervert!" Well if that is what I am ------- I love it!
My sisters, let that woman out. She will return dividends to you beyond your wildest dreams and you don't have to dress to spread the joy!
Just this one girl's findings and results.
Love you all,
Virginia
Jeannie, bless you sweetheart, you are still a great ambassador for us!
I have to agree with the premise that yes those you are truly CD and try to hide it can bring about internal tourment to themselves. I would only hope that they find themselves and find the balance in their lives.
Now I can only speak for myself and the results that my gift has brought me. In a lot of areas, during my day to day activities, the feminine aspect comes out - now in a lot of situations - automatically, and it is beautiful! The looking into people's eyes, the actually listening to them and what they have to say, the reaching out and gently touching them on the hand or arm. Little things that women do automatically and that shock the receiver in a positive way with the results of -"hey, I like that person, (maybe not sure why) they are really cool!" the fact that we actually saw them, recognized them as a fellow human being, listened to them and Holy Cow! actually touched them! I tell you it is amazing to watch the reaction and in some situations I did not even notice I had done anything until I noticed their reaction! It is beautiful.
When Virginia is dressed and we are out, I have had numerous people tell me I am different, my mannerisms change to more femininie, my physical manifestations become a lot more feminine, personality wise, I think there is even more femininty and that I try to hold on to in every day life! Women as such marvelous creatures and to be able to emulate them in their gentleness, love, concern, caring. empathy, what a blessing.
Virginia has given me the strength and understanding to even not be mad at my - soon to be ex! - Yes she was the one who would not even try to accept or even learn or understand and according to her and her attorney as stated in the divorce papers I am an "insane pervert!" Well if that is what I am ------- I love it!
My sisters, let that woman out. She will return dividends to you beyond your wildest dreams and you don't have to dress to spread the joy!
Just this one girl's findings and results.
Love you all,
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
-
Jeannie
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1308
- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:19 pm
- Location: Connecticut
Not sure if great ambassador is the correct choice of words
Your obsevation that people like us who keep it hidden have internal torment rings true. I think I was always depressed. I wasn't a good husband because I was sullen,uncommunicative with Mini and unhappy with myself. I really can't blame her for finding another. She gave it a good shot and stuck it out for many years. I always worked and was responsible in a practical sense but I left all the emotional duties in our marriage up to her. She is why our kids turned out so well. Not me. I'm surprised they embraced Jeannie and are so good to me. I just started talking about things about myself only since coming on this forum. My big mistake was I should of been talking about these things with Mini. Not being open and honest with a partner is deadly. If you hide your true self you make yourself miserable and everyone around you. I realize that now but for my marriage it was too late. I always make jokes about Mini but she is a smart lady,a dedicated teacher and loves our kids. The blame lays squarely on my shoulders for ruining my marriage. We all make mistakes in life Virginia. Some are just bigger than others.Hugs
Love
Jeannie
Love
Jeannie
-
Virginia
- Goddess of the Universe
- Posts: 5543
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
- Location: Strange Magic Hill
Jeannie,
Far be it from me to try and wash other peoples laundry in public, but there are very few reasons for the disolution of a marriage that does not involve both parties! It is nice that you still think highly of Mini! I am sure she is a wonderful person, just as you are!!!!! I am only saying, Jeannie, don't think you are completely to blame and I think that if you look at it subjectively you will find she had to have other reasons than the fact that you like "to dress with style!" In my situation, yes, the crossdressing was the terminal factor that pushed her over the edge, but my gawd she was seeing a shrink that was treating her "poor" self-image with music thearpy and using tuning forks on her feet. I am surprised they were not slaughtering chickens and dancing around the entrails!
Keep the faith honey, we all love you!
Virginia
Far be it from me to try and wash other peoples laundry in public, but there are very few reasons for the disolution of a marriage that does not involve both parties! It is nice that you still think highly of Mini! I am sure she is a wonderful person, just as you are!!!!! I am only saying, Jeannie, don't think you are completely to blame and I think that if you look at it subjectively you will find she had to have other reasons than the fact that you like "to dress with style!" In my situation, yes, the crossdressing was the terminal factor that pushed her over the edge, but my gawd she was seeing a shrink that was treating her "poor" self-image with music thearpy and using tuning forks on her feet. I am surprised they were not slaughtering chickens and dancing around the entrails!
Keep the faith honey, we all love you!
Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
-
CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Jeannie,
That was a post for the ages! Bravo! A thousand times Bravo!
I'm not celebrating that you're the reason why Mini sought greener pastures. I'm celebrating that you have the courage to recognize the part you played in her departure while still keeping your wacky sense of humour as well as your desire to get to know yourself better.
Why are you surprised that your kids are so good to you? You've become a "truer" person since you've let the Jeannie out of the bottle, so to speak. In a sense, your kids are finally getting to know you. This has happened with Elizabeth and her kids, as well. I don't wonder why they embrace you; I wonder why it took you so long to let yourself be embraced by those who love you.
Love,
CJ
Jeannie,
That was a post for the ages! Bravo! A thousand times Bravo!
I'm not celebrating that you're the reason why Mini sought greener pastures. I'm celebrating that you have the courage to recognize the part you played in her departure while still keeping your wacky sense of humour as well as your desire to get to know yourself better.
Why are you surprised that your kids are so good to you? You've become a "truer" person since you've let the Jeannie out of the bottle, so to speak. In a sense, your kids are finally getting to know you. This has happened with Elizabeth and her kids, as well. I don't wonder why they embrace you; I wonder why it took you so long to let yourself be embraced by those who love you.
Love,
CJ