The not really out, crossdresser

[Elizabeth]

Hi girls,

When I came here, a little over two years ago, I had a pretty good idea I was going to come out of the closet. I was very scared about the consequences of this, but I just did not want to keep it a secret any longer. Coming here was my first contact with other crossdressers.

It was amazing, there were a lot of girls here just like me. You girls felt the same things I was feeling while dressed. You ladies did not judge me harshly, but accepted me as I was. But it was only after being here for a while that I realized that I had stepped out of the closet, but into another one.

You see, having only a limited experience with other crossdressers, I assumed that others here were all like me. I did not know that everyone(crossdressers) was not a girl on the inside. I thought that there were just different degrees of denial.

Of course after being here a while, I realized that all crossdressers were not like me. If fact most were nothing like me. Most of you enjoy your male side and would never relinquish it, while still having this same undescribable feeling that I have when dressed. This feeling of well being, comfort and being at ease with oneself.

I had stepped out of the closet of total denial to the crossdresser closet of transsexual denial. It was like I was afraid to admit the truth. I am not sure why. I knew I was never going back to wearing men's clothes. I knew I really always wanted to be a girl.

This is a scary thing to admit. To acknowledge that I was never going back to my male life. As bad as it was, it was all I knew. As much as I wanted to be a girl, I had never lived as a girl. I didn't know how. If I committed to being transsexual, I was committing to having to really do something about this. Part time dressing, having my ears peirced, shaving my body was clearly not going to be enough.

To admit that I had always known I was a girl, was to say I can no longer justify living my life as a man. When I was the only one that knew I was transsexual, I was the only one that knew I was doing nothing about it. How could I put up a front, if everyone knows I am putting up a front? How do I teach my kids to be true to themselves while I am not being true to myself? How do I support myself? What if I am shunned by friends and family?

Which is worse? Never getting to be who I am or being isolated, critisized, and condemned to hell for being the person I am? For many this decision also includes the loss of thier job and contact with thier children. Fortunately for me, I don't work and I live in a state the protects transgendered people from discrimination is housing, employment, public accomidations and most importantly, custody of children.

So for me, it was a huge relief to be out of the closet. There was a uphoria that followed that, but it was tempered in a short amount of time, once I realized that admitting to being a crossdresser was just another closet for me.

And so I wonder? How many others out there are out as crossdressers, but are not out that really they are transsexuals? And of course people like me cause great concern among even the most supportive SO's who really just want to know the bottom line.

How is a SO to know? Many SO's even have conditional support. They are willing to stay for various levels of crossdressing, but draw the line at transition, including hormones, implants, hair removal, public dressing or some combination of those things. The transsexual hiding in the crossdresser closet may feel so much uphoria over being accepted as a crossdresser and given limited priviledges to dress, beleive they can keep thier transsexuality secret, as once they did about thier desire to crossdress in general.

We have seen some SO's who have been strung along having one limit after another exceeded, until finally it's a deal breaker for them. Others wonder where it will end as they see their DH's dressing more frequently, more pubically and more passable.

There is the old joke: "What's the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?....... About five years". It's no wonder this is one of the biggest fears of SO's. The other being, are we gay?

There is good news for SO's though, because it turns out that the transsexuals are a minority of the transgendered community. The ratio's we see here and other places on the net, suggest to me that crossdressers outnumber transsexuals by a very large degree. So if you are a SO and your DH or BF says he is a crossdresser and does not desire to transition, the numbers say that he probably is telling the truth.

Anyways, that is one girls opinion.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[CJ]

Hi all,

Interesting post, Elizabeth, very interesting.

As you know, this has been my own struggle as well, this past year. I've been trying to figure out if I've been fooling myself--especially since coming out much more publicly as a CD. The COGIATI has always pegged me as a late-blooming TS; I've always had very invasive fantasies--from a very young age--of being a woman; the dressing somehow just doesn't cut it for me anymore (and hasn't for some time); passing is super important to me; and, hell, even my own mother truly believes (and is totally okay with the fact that) I'm very likely a transsexual.

Yet... yet, I think--I feel--that I may be one of those gender-variant folks who are really in a "gray zone" of sorts... what Beauty latched on to--at first, anyway--as being a "transgenderist," i.e., someone who's more than a crossdresser and yet less than a transsexual. What makes me say this is the fact that, as opposed to "true" transsexuals, I have no real problem with the, uh, "equipment" I was born with; I do, in fact, derive much pleasure from, ah, ownership of a penis. That doesn't mean, however, that I'm comfortable in any or all masculine roles in the marketplace of gender identities. I'm not. It's a conundrum, to be sure.

My friend Rina (who knows I've had a yen for her for some time now) has sort of grilled me on the subject. We've become a lot closer in the past few months and both her friends and mine are wondering why nothing is happening between the two of us. I mean, the spark is there, definitely. But, for me, a huge stumbling block is precisely what we've been talking about here; my lack of commitment to my own masculinity. Oh, Rina's quite fine with the idea of my being a CD, even of my wanting to hang out as a woman (she even suggests the possibility of a streamlining of wardrobes, seeing as we're roughly the same size) but she did say to me, point-blank: "I'm fine with you wanting to wear women's clothes; I'm fine with your wanting to appear more feminine; I'm even fine with your wanting to pass as a woman; but, should something ever develop between us, should we ever become a couple, I will definitely not be able to handle your coming to me three years from now and saying, 'Listen, Rina, I want to become a woman; I want to transition.' No, I couldn't handle that." She then asked me if that would ever happen. And, you know what, Elizabeth? I couldn't answer her clearly and unequivocally. I stammered something to the effect that I couldn't see that far into my own future. When I thought about the whole conversation later on, I realized I was speaking the truth; my commitment to who I am, now, at this point in my life, as a gender-variant person, is just not strong enough for me to foresee whether or not my feminine inclinations will either increase or diminish. I said as much to Rina while simultaneously telling her that I seriously, seriously doubt I'm a candidate for a sex change. But that's just it; I'm not sure enough to say this with 1000% conviction, you know?

So, am I in the TS closet? Perhaps. This is something I'll discover as I continue to explore who I am and what I want my life to look and feel like. This, only, I know for sure: I'm no longer in the TG closet. For now, that's plenty good enough for me. In fact, it's probably saved my life, getting my true self "out" like that.

A discussion I've had with Beauty over and over again is just how much many "newly born" transsexuals (i.e., those TS's who've recently admitted to themselves and to the world that this is who and what they are) are aggressive in wanting to "transsexualize" the world. In wanting to get some crossdressers to recognize their own alleged transsexuality, some transsexuals bring a lot of pressure to bear upon some men who simply aren't sure of where they are on the gender spectrum; they really are "just" guys who enjoy glamming it up and/or wearing silky undies, nothing more. Some transsexuals actually prey on transgenderists (in the sense mentioned above) in their passion to "convert" and to make some crossdressers "realize" and "recognize" and "acknowledge" that, deep down inside, these crossdressers are really transsexuals whereas it might just be the case that this is not so. In many ways, this fervor parallels the proselytization that occurs when a person who is "newly born" (in the religious sense) tries very hard to "make others see" what they've just seen, themselves. It's not kosher and it's not cool. Do you know what I mean, Elizabeth? (And, by the way, I'm most definitely not saying that this is what you're doing, sister! I'm just saying this kind of pressure is out there.)

Again, you've provided much food for thought (as usual!). Thanks for the thread.

Love,
CJ

[DonnaT]

Yet... yet, I think--I feel--that I may be one of those gender-variant folks who are really in a "gray zone" of sorts... what Beauty latched on to--at first, anyway--as being a "transgenderist," i.e., someone who's more than a crossdresser and yet less than a transsexual. What makes me say this is the fact that, as opposed to "true" transsexuals, I have no real problem with the, uh, "equipment" I was born with; I do, in fact, derive much pleasure from, ah, ownership of a penis.

Hi CJ,

The fallacy in the above is the idea that a "true" transsexual has a problem with their genitalia.

I've communicated with many TSs online and not all express a dislike of their genitalia. There are many non-op TS women, who choose not to have SRS/GRS.

"True" TSs are the ones who know they are women. Any physical/medical changes decided on are only treatments, and not a conditional requirement for identifying as TS.

[CJ]

Hi all,

Donna,

I hear you. And I agree. I stand corrected. Perhaps I would've made what I meant clearer if I'd referred to, for instance, "far-spectrum" transsexuals. I know there are as many varieties of transsexual experience as there of transvestite (or crossdresser) experience. When I said "true transsexual," I meant the one who, from a very early age, knew--unequivocally and indubitably--that his genitals didn't "belong" to him. It cannot be denied that such people exist.

As far as non-op TS women being women, I can accept that only if I purge myself of the (quite possibly quaint) belief that a woman is a human being with a vagina, not with a penis (this, of course, is leaving aside the plight of the intersexed, an altogether different matter). Notice I didn't say "born with a vagina"; I'm quite willing to accept a transsexual woman as a woman (I mean, why wouldn't I?). Of course, it could be that all this is mere semantics. It doesn't change who people are, all sexes and all genders confounded.

Something I do, however, have trouble with is the notion that someone (of any anatomical sex) can know that they are a woman or a man. I mean, how do you know? Who tells you this? By what set of standards? Is it just a matter of associating a set of genitals with a social definition? I'm a man and I don't know that I'm a man; I have no clear idea of what it is to be a man. Oh, I know the stereotypes and all, but that doesn't help me much, does it? Many of the women I know (admittedly, genetic, non-TS women) also have a rough time understanding this kind of notion. When Simone de Beauvoir said that "a woman is made, not born" (an intriguing parallel, by the way, to the situation many transsexuals find themselves in), she was referring exactly to this kind of "non-essentiality" of women (or men, for that matter, because, surely, men are just as 'socially fabricated' as are women). The only thing I think you can know for sure is that you are you, and that "you" sometimes approximates the cultural definition of this or that gender and/or sometimes doesn't. It's the "you" that we are (the "I," if you will) that we should be focusing on, not the fact that "I'm a woman (and I know it)" or "I'm a man (and I know it)." Searching for our identity through physiology rather than through culture opens up the possibility that we may be led into a blind alley; our biology is so much more resistant to change than is our culture (however snail-paced change may be in the latter).

Sigh. You know, Donna, I realize you and I part ways when it comes to these things. This is a fundamental rift in outlook. However (and I think you'd probably agree with me), it's not one that should prevent us from learning from each other (I'm referring, here, to all people, generally). Obviously, I find your post very stimulating; you've got me gabbing away! So, I'll stop here.

Love,
CJ

[Lydia]

CJ - you say "mere semantics.' I say that the semantics are not mere, but the essence of the discussions. A comic strip today had a young man telling a girl that her "shoes were gay." When she complained, he said that people just didn't understand him - he meant "lame."

Obviously there are different interpretations and connotations to terms such as "transsexual" or "transgendered". There is a fundamental truth, however, and that is that in the human species (mutations excluded) there are two distinct sexes based upon whether you have two X chromosomes, or an X and a Y chromosome. My SO calls the Y-chromosome a defective X. In terms of genetic diffrerences there are probably more differences between the male and female genome than there are between the genome of humans and chimpanzees. These cannot be changed, but the expression of the genes is dependant on environment - which may be anything from diet to surgery. But there are limits to how much change can be accomplished, and no matter what is done to the body, it will remain either male or female, with appropriate structural, physiological, and behavioral constraints. Thus, whether you chooose to identify a surgically produced transsexual as a "woman," is semantics. You can choose your criteria, and your criteria may well be different from someone else's.

See "impenetrability" as defined by Humpty-Dumpty in Alice.

This is fun --- Hugs

Lydia

[Elizabeth]

CJ,

I just wanted to say that I agree with you that there does seem to be a push among transsexuals, to steer people towards transsexualism, passing and transition. It seems I don't really fit the traditional transsexual mold either. While I do concede that I have seriously considered transition, I can not say I have decided with certainty this is the route I will take. Especially when one is sitting on the fence, the pressure is the greatest, although I am not sure why.

I am not sure however, that I am willing to accept that people have been talked into transitioning, when this was not the right thing for them to do personally. I think the pressure comes from the realization, by transsexuals, of how strong the denial is. All transsexuals know there are others out there that are just in denial, that need to be prodded out of denial. The problem is, how does one know who is in denial and who is really comfortable with who they are?

Love always,
Elizabeth

[CJ]

Hi all,

Lydia,

I agree; this is fun. As long as we don't take ourselves *too* seriously (where's Jeannie when you need her? ).

Elizabeth wrote: I am not sure however, that I am willing to accept that people have been talked into transitioning, when this was not the right thing for them to do personally.

I agree.

The problem is, how does one know who is in denial and who is really comfortable with who they are?

Aye. And there's the rub.

Again, great thread, Elizabeth. Thanks to all who participate.

Love,
CJ

[DonnaT]

The idea of someone knowing they are a woman takes us back to Elizabeth's thread.
http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... hp?p=72724

Where I discussed the issue from a childs point of view. Until we can determine how a child "knows", or why he identifies as a girl, at say age 3, then we'll not really have a good answer as to how a TS knows they are a woman.

There was similar question in this regard on the MHB forum, where I posted what I thought to be relavant to the issue of "knowing":

A: How do you know your left handed?

B: Because that's the hand I use to write with.

A: How did you know to write with that hand?

B: I don't know.

[DonnaT]

There is a fundamental truth, however, and that is that in the human species (mutations excluded) there are two distinct sexes based upon whether you have two X chromosomes, or an X and a Y chromosome.

But there are limits to how much change can be accomplished, and no matter what is done to the body, it will remain either male or female, with appropriate structural, physiological, and behavioral constraints.

There was a repeat of an episode of the television series House on last night. A lady came is for diagnosis and it turned out she had testicular cancer.

House, being his arrogant self, called her a "he" in front of her husband.

There was no mention of the fact that some women have XY chromosomes. Women with CAIS for example. A defect (mutation) with the androgen receptor in the X chromosome causes the body to develope into a natural looking XX woman.

[Rose Darn]

Donna,

Quote:
A: How do you know your left handed?

B: Because that's the hand I use to write with.

A: How did you know to write with that hand?

B: I don't know.

I know because it feels correct, I know because I did not have to think about it, it just happened. And as in the case of my third daughter (who does somethings with her left and some with her right (ampi...whatever)) my observant wife saw the signs; guided her, and assured her that the choice was her's alone. Daughter #3 and I have discussed this as my father, also, has this ability to use either left or right depending on what he is doing. I am continually amased by this woman and her insights as to choice, now if she will help me in my most desperate hour.
Rose

[Elizabeth]

Donna,

I agree with you that we probably will never know how a small child knows they are the wrong gender. I have asked this myself and even wrote a thread about it. I don't know how I knew I was the wrong gender. But once I got that idea in my head, it has never left. How did I know that I was the wrong gender? How could I be so certain at age 9? I really don't know. I just know that I read an article about a woman trapped in a man's body and immediately felt this is what happened to me. I don't know what evidence I used to support this conclusion, but I have always been very certain about it.

I know there are others like me, because I have read posts and exchanged messages with others like me, but it seems no one really knows how they knew. Like me, at first they just knew something was wrong but did not know what. As to how we knew we were the wrong gender, we just knew. It seems that our brains are hardwired to a gender predisposition and when our bodies don't match that internal identity, we know it.

For me, the really interesting part of all of this, was learning that others feel thier gender in different ways on a seamless continuum from the very masculine to the very feminine, regardless of thier actual birth sex. And even more remarkable, some feel different about their gender at different times. Sometimes feeling very masculine and other times feeling very feminine, again regardless of thier actual birth sex.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Carolynn]

Hi Elizabeth, CJ, Donna, and all. Interesting topic. It's one TS forums spend a good bit of time returning to and discussing time and again. When my therapist asked me how did I know I was a woman, I could give her lots of reasons, but they all boiled down to "I just am". Now there may actually be a biological basis, often an error in fetal brain development maybe caused by inappropriate hormone releases at critical times, that actually can make a female brain in a male body and vice versa. While I'm not sure I agree with all the following, it is interesting to consider, and the future of whether or not anyone will be known as TS (or whatever) may be in doubt if research and legal arguments continue as they are in Australian courts. This link will lead to other links if you are interested.

From: http://sindromebenjamin.tripod.com/id19.html

"I read a very interesting post from another support group last night. One part I had already known because I was involved in a research project at the University of Missouri at Colombia School of Medicine. Gender Identity Disorder/Gender Dysphoria will probably not be making a reapearance in the American Psychiatry Associations DSM-V (fifth version). Our condition is no longer going to be seen as a psychological disorder. Too many of the studies in the last ten years are proving there is a physical cause for what we suffer. In the next few years we will not be classified as transsexuals, or transgenders, or trans anything. What we are are women (or men)."
"The conclusions that are forming is genitals are an indicator of sex, but do not determine sex. The brain does. One term that is being put forth for our condition is the Harry Benjamin Syndrome. One study is proving that there is an actual genetic precursor for this Syndrome. (I'm including a link that covers all of this.) It appears we will be reclassified as intersexed and that this is a genetic/fetal development event. This is going to have a major impact on how we are perceived and treated."

As to whether or not we recognize our gender as a core identity, I feel that the wiring of the mind itself may be responsible for that, and that we may find that it is a matter of an intuitive "like thinking calling unto like" that leads to a differentiation between men and women. I am sure that the differences are real. It may not be politically correct, but an increasing amount of recent study seems to indicate differences in sizes and development of different areas of the brain between men and women. There is a new book by a neurologist that describes her research and that of others. I have forgotten it's name, but I will look it up and post it.

Guys, I'm sorry, but men are aliens. I was forced to try to be one, and I learned to do enough "things", engage in behaviors and smutty joke telling and don't forget jokes about farts and other bodily functions (really, just funny stereotyping, put away the guns) . That kept me from being a total outcast all the way around, but I just do not know WHY they do these things. My responses to many stimuli were rote, just learned the same way you memorize anything. For example, men think mostly along a single line at a time (except about sex and that can interfere at any time), then beat it to death as each tries to have the last word and they develop into circular arguments that change nothing. I had to learn to think linearly too, or at least express myself linearly. Made me tired, really! I would feel like I had done heavy physical labor after sitting through a few hours of circular, competitve "discussion" on a work related subject. Every meeting took up sooo much time, and was really discussed and settled in the first 15 or 20 minutes usually, but the face saving, the put downs, the brown nosing, the "ne'r say dies" pushing their own view anyway, those that just love to hear their own voices, and some that think if they talk it to death the decision will be changed. You just tune 'em out and sit there and wait for the next glacial cycle to begin.

On the other hand, women's behavior and attitudes and the things they do normally make good sense, and seem predictable given certain social situations, and feel right. Having multiple conversations in a group is sheer relief from turgidity. Monday night two TS and three GGs were in conversation (at least three simultaneous ones) for about an hour, and when we all had to leave we had exchanged what seemed to be an immense amount of information, and actually felt energized. We had set the topic for the next support group meeting, decided who would present it and who would be backup, where one member of the group had gotten her hair done on Saturday from a very gay but sweet man, What the usual facilitator's hospital address is (she's having surgery with a long recovery), who would take care of buying cards and flowers, new email addy for one of the group, who had extra tickets for the Summer Symphony on Sunday, what little Erin had done to her older sibling with her cereal, what the proper age might be to explain mommy or daddy and what they are going through (if they are under 7, don't worry, just tell them, they are too used to impossibilites to care very much), when was enrollment set for Edmond Schools, and the jitters over an upcoming job interview by a person just starting RLE, and reassurances. I think that was all. We only stopped because we were expected elsewhere. During the same time, 4 guys with us drew diagrams of something called linkages or something on a car on a table cover (brown paper--Joes Crab Shack), with crayons (appropriately) that were on the table to entertain the younger crowd. I'm not sure they ever agreed on which was right.

At work, when there is a meeting on a subject without guys, the situation is discussed, a consensus decision is made (in about 15 minutes everyone already knows the why of the meeting) and then if it is scheduled for an hour, you spend the balance of the time just talking about things or other items coming up (birthdays, weddings, retirement parties, trips, kids, pets, daycare), then you break up and go to work.

Where TS's are concerned, just the fact that there are cross gendered people, and that there are so many, and that it is cross cultural, there must be some biological basis for it or it would just be a one-off and be done with it.

As far as there being TS "cheerleaders" trying to convince others they may be TS, well that happens. Usually it's a desire to shortcut some misery for another person they perceive as appearing to have the same conflicts they have already experienced. Some of these same folks though, try to encourage other TSs to move faster than they are comfortable doing, and it can get kinda difficult to remember that you are moving at your own speed, not running a race. Your own impulses and the "cascade effect" of just getting on with it so you can get on with life is quite enough. You don't need outside encouragement.

This is too long. How'd that happen?

Love, Carolynn

[Loy B(SO)]

Elizabeth,
This is a very interesting post. I for one have supported my hubsand through everything thus far and have no intentions of stopping at this point.It started out with just wearing panties and has bloomed into him being on hormones at this time and dressing completely at free will.He has even expressed an interst that he could be bicurious.There have never been any"restrictions" on what I have allowed him to do. I do let him know if something makes me feel uncomfortable,but I dont place restrictions on my husband as that is more of a thing for children than a grown man. It has been rocky,yes but we continue to go on and I become more accepting as we go.He just takes it slow until I feel more comfortable as the interest change.I dont believe that all men that are cd's are transexuals or have interest in it. Some men do enjoy just dressing for the pure pleasure of feeling something silky against them. I wouldnt knock down anyone for what they enjoy doing.Is it ok to be just a guy in a dress....Absoultely!I like to say whatever floats your boat.I think it all depends on what a mans comfort level is as to how far they go with it. Some men will never do mo0re than be men in dresses while others will bloom like my husband has and enjoy something a lil more.It should all be about what he is comfortable doing. I personally think there is nothing wrong with it either way!

[Carolynn]

(CJ, Maybe the knowing is all in the brain?)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13989048/site/newsweek/

It’s not as if we all start out with the same brain structure. They are different by nature. Think about this. What if the communication center is bigger in one brain than the other? What if the emotional memory center is bigger in one brain than the other? What if one brain develops a greater ability to read cues in people than another? In this case, you would have a person whose reality dictated that communication, connection, emotional sensitivity, and responsiveness were the primary values. This person would prize these qualities above all others and be baffled by another person with a brain that didn’t grasp the importance of these qualities. In essence, you would have someone with a female brain.
—from Chapter 1, “What Makes Us Women”

Every brain begins as a female brain. It only becomes male eight weeks after conception, when excess testosterone shrinks the communications center, reduces the hearing cortex, and makes the part of the brain that processes sex twice as large.

Louann Brizendine, M.D. is a pioneering neuropsychiatrist who brings together the latest findings to show how the unique structure of the female brain determines how women think, what they value, how they communicate, and who they’ll love. Brizendine reveals the neurological explanations behind why :

A woman uses about 20,000 words per day while a man uses about 7,000
A woman remembers fights that a man insists never happened
A teen girl is so obsessed with her looks and talking on the phone
Thoughts about sex enter a woman’s brain once every couple of days but enter a man’s brain about once every minute
A woman knows what people are feeling, while a man can’t spot an emotion unless somebody cries or threatens bodily harm
A woman over 50 is more likely to initiate divorce than a man

This is one book that is gonna make a lot of femminists mad!!!!

[Lydia]

Wow ! CarolLynn,

Great post. I must show this to my SO. She claims that my Y-chromosome is simply a defective X.

Your argument supports the idea beautifully.

Hugs,

Lydia