I realize that as someone who has not told their wife all that much about this I am being a bit theoretical here. But I am responding to something Jess said about no more lies and half truths being an almost impossible goal for her SO to get to.
A while ago my sponsor in my 12 step fellowship asked me what secrets I had. In the context of our relationship this is a completely appropriate question. I told him that there were certain things that I had not told him and would prefer not to and he was accepting of this.
So that was the end of one secret and one lie. The lie that there were no secrets. And believe me that too is a big one. Eventually I told him the rest and his response was mostly that this is my business.
I guess the point is that sometimes the best we can do with the truth is to say that the truth is that I am not comfortable telling you everything about this. And that when this is the truth the person asking for the truth must be prepared to hear the truth.
There are certain things that even in a marriage of long standing remain private. Especially in a good marriage. I think most spouses would agree for example, that you would not ask your spouse to relate every last word of what you said in therapy. Or to the priest at confession. Or what a close friend confided in you about themselves. So here we have examples of acceptable privacy within a marriage. Yet to take the confession thing a bit further, to tell your spouse you have told them everything that you told the priest when it is not true is a lie.
Where in marriage does Cding fall? Hard to give absolute answers.
Of course in a "relationship" there is a certain need to know some things. A question of do you have sex with others while dressed for example is legitimate I think. So is do you wear my clothes. After all this is borrowing without asking.
I do think that accepting the answer of I am not comfortable telling all could pave the way to the CDer being more open later.
Just random thoughts. Hope they help.
Absaroka
no more lies
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Absaroka
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no more lies
Last edited by Absaroka on Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
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Curly(SO)
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Yes, Absaroka, you have a made a good point there. I was well aware that some of the questions I was asking Ed to answer about CDing were uncomfortable for him to answer. Maybe some he didn't know the answer to or answers that would not be set in stone, that might change as time goes along. how much right do I have to expect him to bare his soul to me?
I can only imagine what it must feel like to reveal such a secret, how uncomfortable it must be to talk about. I can understand not wanting to be bombarded with painful questions. I hope I was not like a bull in a china shop when Ed told me. I think things only got a bit tense on a couple of occasions so maybe I was tactful and sensitive enough!
I have realised that over the last nearly three years of knowing more questions have gradually been answered, Ed has more trust in me to share more with me. Having answers has been a gradual process and will continue to be so. Things change, people change.
Unanswered questions secrets an lies are not always lies in a bad sense, not there to cause hurt and I would agree with you, Absaroka that brutal honesty can be an impossible goal.
love,
Curly.
I can only imagine what it must feel like to reveal such a secret, how uncomfortable it must be to talk about. I can understand not wanting to be bombarded with painful questions. I hope I was not like a bull in a china shop when Ed told me. I think things only got a bit tense on a couple of occasions so maybe I was tactful and sensitive enough!
I have realised that over the last nearly three years of knowing more questions have gradually been answered, Ed has more trust in me to share more with me. Having answers has been a gradual process and will continue to be so. Things change, people change.
Unanswered questions secrets an lies are not always lies in a bad sense, not there to cause hurt and I would agree with you, Absaroka that brutal honesty can be an impossible goal.
love,
Curly.
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Paulie
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CJ
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Hi all,
Hmmmm. Although I understand your point, Absaroka (and it's a valid one, too), it sounds like a bit of rationalization to me, when applied to our situation. I'm not so sure that it's that easy to avoid having to be upfront to our SO's regarding our crossdressing.
For many of us, crossdressing is linked to our sexuality, to our sexual desires and libido. Yet sexuality cannot just be a solitary thing when you're partnered to a wife or girlfriend. A CD's solitary sex life (which occurs when a sexually active CD is still in the closet) doesn't do much for an SO (think: "Well, no wonder you didn't need me; you had your own 'mirror self' to bring you sexual pleasure all this time"... a frequent remark when an SO finds out). It often seems that one of the strategies we CD's use to minimize (in our own minds) the need to fess up to our SO's is to divorce our crossdressing from any hint of sexuality. Methinks we fool ourselves (and our SO's) when we do that. Supposing this is true (and I'm just thinking out loud here, too, based on my own experience), we then choose not to tell our SO's mainly for fear that they'll reject or, at the very least, choose not to participate in, our own brand of (admittedly kinky) sexuality.
It's always a puzzle to me why a man who, in all other ways, professes to love and care about his wife or girlfriend will hit the emotional 'mute button' when it comes to his sexuality, especially given that sexual intimacy is one of the most sublime ways in which we can let our SO's know that we do, indeed, love and desire them. Picture this: what happens if your wife or girlfriend asks you what you enjoy in bed, what you fantasize about, what turns you on? If CD'ing doesn't come out here, you're lying both to her and to yourself (again, of course, on the assumption that CD'ing is sexual for you). People have so much difficulty talking about their sexual lives with their partners it's almost painful to watch.
As it turns out, we seem to be ashamed to admit that some (or even most, in some cases) of our sexual energy is devoted to an erotic object other than our SO's. In this sense, we truly are "the other woman" that our wives and girlfriends wonder about when it appears to them that we shut them out of our sexual lives. But it needn't be that way; there's ample evidence, even here on this forum, that, if the relationship is healthy in most other ways, some women are able (and even willing) to participate in their DH's kink (even though they won't necessarily find it so pleasurable if the focus is always or strictly on the sexual needs of their man--and can you blame them?).
No, I agree: not everything needs to be revealed to our SO's about who we are. Every human being has what we call in French an "inner bastion," a place deep within us that belongs only to us and to nobody else. But our CD'ing, I think, doesn't belong there. If, as I say, our crossdressing is linked to our sexuality and if, as I believe, sexuality is something to be shared between two people who do indeed desire each other, then CD'ing cannot remain in the shadows without there arising the risk of serious emotional damage being done to one partner or the other (or both). Yes, I know that such a risk also arises from self-revelation but that risk has self-limitations, too. Once an SO finds out (or, ideally, is told) about her DH's proclivities, she now has the option to terminate the relationship--a sad thing, yes, but sometimes the best possible (and most liberating) move in a world where not every person on Earth is able (nor likely) to find every other person attractive or appealing. The important thing, I think, is not to wait decades before giving our SO that option. Which brings me to another point.
We all know that, very often, it's not the CD'ing per se that bothers our wives or girlfriends, it's the amount of emotional energy we've put into hiding this essential aspect of who we are from them. They (rightly, I think) cannot help but wonder what else we've lied about to them. As I said above, this kind of damage can or cannot be fixed, depending on both the circumstances of our coming out as well as on the particular SO's personality and mindset. Some will say "Yea" and some will say "Nay." In either case, liberation is afoot; CD's acquire the the "freedom to be" and SO's acquire the "freedom to be with."
While it's true that we won't necessarily tell our spouses everything we tell our sponsors or therapists or priests, I also think it's true that, if we're engaged in a relationship where honesty and love and emotional intimacy thrive, the need for sponsors and therapists and priests becomes less pressing. Of course, this is an ideal world, mind you. However, we shouldn't underestimate the power we each have to make such a world a reality for ourselves. We need but to stop fearing the consequences of fully engaging ourselves with ourselves and with others (and, yes, with the world at large). We need to embrace being human, fully human, warts and all.
Love,
CJ
Hmmmm. Although I understand your point, Absaroka (and it's a valid one, too), it sounds like a bit of rationalization to me, when applied to our situation. I'm not so sure that it's that easy to avoid having to be upfront to our SO's regarding our crossdressing.
For many of us, crossdressing is linked to our sexuality, to our sexual desires and libido. Yet sexuality cannot just be a solitary thing when you're partnered to a wife or girlfriend. A CD's solitary sex life (which occurs when a sexually active CD is still in the closet) doesn't do much for an SO (think: "Well, no wonder you didn't need me; you had your own 'mirror self' to bring you sexual pleasure all this time"... a frequent remark when an SO finds out). It often seems that one of the strategies we CD's use to minimize (in our own minds) the need to fess up to our SO's is to divorce our crossdressing from any hint of sexuality. Methinks we fool ourselves (and our SO's) when we do that. Supposing this is true (and I'm just thinking out loud here, too, based on my own experience), we then choose not to tell our SO's mainly for fear that they'll reject or, at the very least, choose not to participate in, our own brand of (admittedly kinky) sexuality.
It's always a puzzle to me why a man who, in all other ways, professes to love and care about his wife or girlfriend will hit the emotional 'mute button' when it comes to his sexuality, especially given that sexual intimacy is one of the most sublime ways in which we can let our SO's know that we do, indeed, love and desire them. Picture this: what happens if your wife or girlfriend asks you what you enjoy in bed, what you fantasize about, what turns you on? If CD'ing doesn't come out here, you're lying both to her and to yourself (again, of course, on the assumption that CD'ing is sexual for you). People have so much difficulty talking about their sexual lives with their partners it's almost painful to watch.
As it turns out, we seem to be ashamed to admit that some (or even most, in some cases) of our sexual energy is devoted to an erotic object other than our SO's. In this sense, we truly are "the other woman" that our wives and girlfriends wonder about when it appears to them that we shut them out of our sexual lives. But it needn't be that way; there's ample evidence, even here on this forum, that, if the relationship is healthy in most other ways, some women are able (and even willing) to participate in their DH's kink (even though they won't necessarily find it so pleasurable if the focus is always or strictly on the sexual needs of their man--and can you blame them?).
No, I agree: not everything needs to be revealed to our SO's about who we are. Every human being has what we call in French an "inner bastion," a place deep within us that belongs only to us and to nobody else. But our CD'ing, I think, doesn't belong there. If, as I say, our crossdressing is linked to our sexuality and if, as I believe, sexuality is something to be shared between two people who do indeed desire each other, then CD'ing cannot remain in the shadows without there arising the risk of serious emotional damage being done to one partner or the other (or both). Yes, I know that such a risk also arises from self-revelation but that risk has self-limitations, too. Once an SO finds out (or, ideally, is told) about her DH's proclivities, she now has the option to terminate the relationship--a sad thing, yes, but sometimes the best possible (and most liberating) move in a world where not every person on Earth is able (nor likely) to find every other person attractive or appealing. The important thing, I think, is not to wait decades before giving our SO that option. Which brings me to another point.
We all know that, very often, it's not the CD'ing per se that bothers our wives or girlfriends, it's the amount of emotional energy we've put into hiding this essential aspect of who we are from them. They (rightly, I think) cannot help but wonder what else we've lied about to them. As I said above, this kind of damage can or cannot be fixed, depending on both the circumstances of our coming out as well as on the particular SO's personality and mindset. Some will say "Yea" and some will say "Nay." In either case, liberation is afoot; CD's acquire the the "freedom to be" and SO's acquire the "freedom to be with."
While it's true that we won't necessarily tell our spouses everything we tell our sponsors or therapists or priests, I also think it's true that, if we're engaged in a relationship where honesty and love and emotional intimacy thrive, the need for sponsors and therapists and priests becomes less pressing. Of course, this is an ideal world, mind you. However, we shouldn't underestimate the power we each have to make such a world a reality for ourselves. We need but to stop fearing the consequences of fully engaging ourselves with ourselves and with others (and, yes, with the world at large). We need to embrace being human, fully human, warts and all.
Love,
CJ
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Virginia
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DonnaT
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FearCJ wrote:It's always a puzzle to me why a man who, in all other ways, professes to love and care about his wife or girlfriend will hit the emotional 'mute button' when it comes to his sexuality, especially given that sexual intimacy is one of the most sublime ways in which we can let our SO's know that we do, indeed, love and desire them. Picture this: what happens if your wife or girlfriend asks you what you enjoy in bed, what you fantasize about, what turns you on? If CD'ing doesn't come out here, you're lying both to her and to yourself (again, of course, on the assumption that CD'ing is sexual for you). People have so much difficulty talking about their sexual lives with their partners it's almost painful to watch.
Fear of being humiliated, fear of losing her/his respect, fear of being labeled a sissy, fear of losing one's wife/husband, fear of nonacceptance, fear of being outed to friends and family.
For every relationship in which the CDing works out, there is probably one that doesn't work out. We read about both results all the time.
A recent post, he was preparing to propose but had to tell her. She freaked calling him a faggot, etc. One day he came home to find her in bed with three guys.
Reading posts like that does not help to alleviate those fears.
Choosing between a result of terminating the relationship, and staying with your soul mate, most times the choice is to stay and in many cases the only choice is to hide it.
DonnaT
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Loy B(SO)
- Miss Emerald Goddess
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Well said CJ. I could not have said it any better myself.Maybe there are some things in a marriage that you dont willingly share,but cd'ing insnt one of them. A good relationship is built on trust.loyalty and most inportant Communication!!!-
SilverLady(SO)
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Bless you, CJ, for so eloquently elaborating on something I have always firmly believed, and have said to the CD's here:
The CD owes it to their wife/fiance/girlfriend to let her know about their CDing - and as soon as possible. The GG has a right to decide if that is something she can handle or not.
True, there are many CDs who have not/did not realize they were CD until many, many years into the relationship with their GG. However, as soon as they became aware of that aspect of their person then they had the moral obligation to let their GG know. Sadly, some GG's decide they just cannot or will not handle/tolerate their man being CD. That is their right, and they should not be lambasted for that decision.
As Loy said above, a good relationship is built on trust, loyalty, and communication, but most importantly a relationship has a firm foundation that is built on love and trust. Without that, the relationship will surely collapse, just like any foundation that is built on sand.
And like my friend Virginia has said: CJ, I am humbled, honored, and privileged to even be in your presence on this forum, and even moreso to be considered as one of your friends 'in real life.' Much love and hugs to you, CJ - and you know that my CD is not jealous of the love and friendship that you and I share.
- SL
The CD owes it to their wife/fiance/girlfriend to let her know about their CDing - and as soon as possible. The GG has a right to decide if that is something she can handle or not.
True, there are many CDs who have not/did not realize they were CD until many, many years into the relationship with their GG. However, as soon as they became aware of that aspect of their person then they had the moral obligation to let their GG know. Sadly, some GG's decide they just cannot or will not handle/tolerate their man being CD. That is their right, and they should not be lambasted for that decision.
As Loy said above, a good relationship is built on trust, loyalty, and communication, but most importantly a relationship has a firm foundation that is built on love and trust. Without that, the relationship will surely collapse, just like any foundation that is built on sand.
And like my friend Virginia has said: CJ, I am humbled, honored, and privileged to even be in your presence on this forum, and even moreso to be considered as one of your friends 'in real life.' Much love and hugs to you, CJ - and you know that my CD is not jealous of the love and friendship that you and I share.
- SL
SilverLady(SO)
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Proud Military Family - Navy, Army, Coast Guard, National Guard
- Native Motor City and Wolverine gal . . . GO BLUE!!
- Molon Labe - Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis - Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
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Proud Military Family - Navy, Army, Coast Guard, National Guard -
Lydia
- We Will Never Forget You - Rest in Peace
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Dear CJ,
Your essay (as it truly is) should be inscribed in gold letters on silver paper. Unless you have it copyrighted, I shall copy it into my computer files, and distribute it to anyone I think should read it. I have already referenced it to three different people. It is without doubt one of the most thoughtful and insightful pieces I have ever read on this subject - or on any subject, I might add.
As Silver Lady said, it is a privilege to be associated with you. Thanks.
Much love and respect,
Lydia
Your essay (as it truly is) should be inscribed in gold letters on silver paper. Unless you have it copyrighted, I shall copy it into my computer files, and distribute it to anyone I think should read it. I have already referenced it to three different people. It is without doubt one of the most thoughtful and insightful pieces I have ever read on this subject - or on any subject, I might add.
As Silver Lady said, it is a privilege to be associated with you. Thanks.
Much love and respect,
Lydia
"There comes a time ... when you must grasp the bull by the tail and face the situation."
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KimberlyS
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Curly, I think that this is where many of us are at. At least I was raised in an society, family and friends, where any sign of being feminine was called a sissy and/or gay. And being gay was a very bad thing. Boys and men did certain things and girls and women did different certain things. But then I also had a mom that taught me to help around the house, clean, cook, sew, and do other "girl/woman" things. So I guess I grew up in a conflicting environment you could say. Growing up I would help bake cookies in the morning and in the afternoon take chain saw in hand and cut down trees or other manly things.Curly(SO) wrote: ... I can only imagine what it must feel like to reveal such a secret, how uncomfortable it must be to talk about.
And while I had a very loving family, we did not talk alot about feelings, and not about certain subjects except when mom talked to us about them, like a mini lecture. So yes for me it is very hard to talk about and be totally honest with myself and my wife about my cding. But I have come along way and I am at a mostly open point, at least I think so. But it has taken alot of communication with my wife to get to this point. So being totally open and honest about my CDing has been a very hard thing for me to do. But I think a turning point for me was when I began to look inward instead of to others to understand who I was and what my CDing was for me, and not for others.
And I do agree with CJ and SilverLady on:
"The CD owes it to their wife/fiance/girlfriend to let her know about their CDing - and as soon as possible. The GG has a right to decide if that is something she can handle or not."
At least for me I know during the period that my wife was really struggling with my cding, I was also. And it tore me up inside because I could not go to her and talk to her about it because first I did not know how to talk to her about it, and second I was to stop CDing, PERIOD. End of discussion. I know our relationship suffered big time during this period of time and others did notice it also.
I agree with Loy in:
"A good relationship is built on trust.loyalty and most inportant Communication!!! "
And I believe a good relationship can make it through alot. And my marriage is proof of that. My wife said recently that it was not so much the CDing that affected her, even though she did not like it. It was the lying, half truths, and not being open and honest with her that were the big issues. The trust factor if you will.
I see so many CDers that say they have a good relationship with their wifes. And yet they can not tell their wife they are a cder and who knows what else. And then later you hear other things like they do not sleep together or the do not have an intimate physical relationship anymore. Or I hear things from them things that make it sound like their marriage is just a married singles type of relationship.
I then often thank God for all the troubles I have been through with my wife over my CDing and other things, because now I have a much better relationship with my wife than they do, and we are both working to make it better. An open and honest relationship may not be easy at times, but I believe it is worth it. I know hidding/not telling whole truths about my cding affected my marriage just as did things my wife was hidding and I did not find out till later. And yes I have been scared many times about loosing my wife to divorce. And it is still in the back of my mind at times.
If others can live their life hidding and telling half truths, I wish them great strength to continue to do it. I know it was not the thing for me to do it.
CJ, your whole post was great. Wonderful reading.
I am sorry if I have offended anyone else. This is my story and feelings. Your life and feelings may differ greatly.
KimberlyS - CD
A femmine guy in a skirt
Site Administrator
I am a physically male person that likes to wear feminine clothes at times.
Just trying keep a balance for my self along with keeping my wife and kids in mind.
I am a physically male person that likes to wear feminine clothes at times.
Just trying keep a balance for my self along with keeping my wife and kids in mind.
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Lydia
- We Will Never Forget You - Rest in Peace
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- Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:43 am
- Location: Sarasota, Florida
CJ’s essay really got me thinking and reminiscing. I have related this before, but my mother actually became violent when she caught me trying on her clothes. My teen years were not my happy years, and I lived steeped in guilt like the main character in “Crime and Punishment.” When I moved to live by myself, I dressed in secret. After I married, I minimally revealed my “fetishes” to my wife. She barely tolerated my CD. Panties were OK, and silky nighties. An occasional housedress was the limit. I never told her of my real desires. I loved her dearly, and we were a very happy couple, especially since we were both teachers, and in the same general field. I was able to sublimate my CD compulsions and keep them under control, simply because I was totally in love and devoted. In spite of inner turmoil, the marriage was a happy and companionate one - for 50 years !
She died 10 years ago. It was over a year after she died that I resumed closet CD, and began to accumulate a small wardrobe. I was then lucky enough to meet my new soulmate. I revealed my CD, after about a year of dating, when things looked serious. I was scared stiff that I would lose her, but she accepted it easily, saying that she loved me no matter how I was dressed. I must admit that I didn’t tell her everything at once. In small steps, I tested the waters and found her accepting of makeup and wig - the whole thing! In spite of her acceptance, she still cannot understand “Why”? I don’t understand either. I can describe my feelings and desires, but that still does not satisfy me or anyone else in any objective fashion. We have agreed that at our age, too much togetherness is neither desirable or even necessary. We are LAT (=living apart together), and it works.
My wife and I never had any children. Ours were vicarious children, i.e., our many students. SO has a 45 year old son - living out west. However, I have wondered about the problem of the children of a CD & wife. What do you tell them, or do you stay in the deep closet? What happens if you are truly open and honest, as in the case of the couple in the latest TV show on the WE channel? Seems OK on the surface, but what happens when the 10-year-old blurts out to his classmates:”My Daddy wears Mummy’s dresses!” The ramifications of that are mind-boggling. Frankly, I am glad I don’t have to cope with that situation, but my heart goes out in sympathy to those who do. Achieving the acceptance and understanding from the wife or sweetheart is hard enough, but to deal with a child’s vision of a family seems to me to be almost impossible.
Sorry for the long, rambling post - blame it on CJ. She really get the little grey cells working.
Hugs,
Lydia
She died 10 years ago. It was over a year after she died that I resumed closet CD, and began to accumulate a small wardrobe. I was then lucky enough to meet my new soulmate. I revealed my CD, after about a year of dating, when things looked serious. I was scared stiff that I would lose her, but she accepted it easily, saying that she loved me no matter how I was dressed. I must admit that I didn’t tell her everything at once. In small steps, I tested the waters and found her accepting of makeup and wig - the whole thing! In spite of her acceptance, she still cannot understand “Why”? I don’t understand either. I can describe my feelings and desires, but that still does not satisfy me or anyone else in any objective fashion. We have agreed that at our age, too much togetherness is neither desirable or even necessary. We are LAT (=living apart together), and it works.
My wife and I never had any children. Ours were vicarious children, i.e., our many students. SO has a 45 year old son - living out west. However, I have wondered about the problem of the children of a CD & wife. What do you tell them, or do you stay in the deep closet? What happens if you are truly open and honest, as in the case of the couple in the latest TV show on the WE channel? Seems OK on the surface, but what happens when the 10-year-old blurts out to his classmates:”My Daddy wears Mummy’s dresses!” The ramifications of that are mind-boggling. Frankly, I am glad I don’t have to cope with that situation, but my heart goes out in sympathy to those who do. Achieving the acceptance and understanding from the wife or sweetheart is hard enough, but to deal with a child’s vision of a family seems to me to be almost impossible.
Sorry for the long, rambling post - blame it on CJ. She really get the little grey cells working.
Hugs,
Lydia
"There comes a time ... when you must grasp the bull by the tail and face the situation."
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KimberlyS
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Absaroka and Lydia, I also wanted to add to my post but forgot in my wanderings:
I know for some relationships it does seem to work not being fully honest. And if it works and they are both happy that is great and wonderful for them. It was not going to work that way for me. And it is mostly the marriages/couples I wonder about where they say everything is great, and then in chatting with them you find out it is not as great as it sounds. It may be me, but I seem to see what looks like alot of married single couples. They both have mostly their own seperate lives and things they do other than a few core activities that they do together. And of course the presentation of spouse functions as required by job and family.
I know we all do what we think is best for our situation / relationship / marriage. But I look at the divorce rate and hear the people talking that are unhappy with their current or past relationship. And if current not willing to change or bring out the issues into the open. And so many of the issues couples seem to have, at least to me, seem to be communication and honesty issues. And I know I was never taught how to be in a relationship prior to getting into one and then getting married.
Now where did I put that "How to be married" manual anyway. I must find it.
KimberlyS - CD
I know for some relationships it does seem to work not being fully honest. And if it works and they are both happy that is great and wonderful for them. It was not going to work that way for me. And it is mostly the marriages/couples I wonder about where they say everything is great, and then in chatting with them you find out it is not as great as it sounds. It may be me, but I seem to see what looks like alot of married single couples. They both have mostly their own seperate lives and things they do other than a few core activities that they do together. And of course the presentation of spouse functions as required by job and family.
I know we all do what we think is best for our situation / relationship / marriage. But I look at the divorce rate and hear the people talking that are unhappy with their current or past relationship. And if current not willing to change or bring out the issues into the open. And so many of the issues couples seem to have, at least to me, seem to be communication and honesty issues. And I know I was never taught how to be in a relationship prior to getting into one and then getting married.
Now where did I put that "How to be married" manual anyway. I must find it.
KimberlyS - CD
Site Administrator
I am a physically male person that likes to wear feminine clothes at times.
Just trying keep a balance for my self along with keeping my wife and kids in mind.
I am a physically male person that likes to wear feminine clothes at times.
Just trying keep a balance for my self along with keeping my wife and kids in mind.
-
CJ
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3562
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 11:12 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi all,
Kimberly, it's not the "how to be married" manual we should be looking for; rather, it's the "how to be yourself" manual we ought to keep an eye out for. Being ourselves--from the get go--is what will lay the foundations for a happy (read: open, honest, loving, and "communicative") marriage. In reference, for instance, to Donna's post, how can your SO know that you are truly her soulmate if a large part of your soul remains hidden from her? It makes little sense to me.
Thanks for the compliments, y'all, but I have to say that the thoughts and sentiments behind my words differ little from those of so many SO's who have posted here regarding this subject. All we need to do is but listen to what they're saying when they say how they're feeling.
Absaroka, I understand the notion of an individual's private life, his or her "inner world," if you will. I guess I just don't see how important a subject as one's gender identity (or even sexual preferences) can be kept apart from "the state of the union" if that "union" is marriage and that "state" is health or happiness.
Donna, I totally agree with you about "the fear factor." It's true; fear paralyzes us; fear diminishes us. We have one pass at happiness here below; it's an opportunity to grow, not to wither. And although this may sound harsh (I sorta maybe don't mean it to), to those who object to full (and, yes, voluntary) disclosure of their CD'ing to their spouse on the grounds that it stands to topple all they've built, I'd suggest that all they've built (in the absence of honesty) is built on shifting sands. You keep building on this and it will soon topple, regardless.
I realize much of this sounds accusatory. It's not, though. You know me at least well enough to know that I'm the first person to recognize that each person's situation is different and needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Plus, I'm not a marriage counsellor. Period. Still, I see so much self-inflicted wounding--chronic wounding--here that I often wonder why people don't forge ahead, building up who they are, and leave this emotional masochism behind them. Is it really the case that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush? That's fear talking again and I've never believed that to be true. (Please note well that I mean for everything I said in this paragraph to apply to SO's as well as to CD's!)
I also realize that my own situation is quite different than that of many members here. Although I don't "hang out" in privileged CD circles, I'm pretty much out to everyone around me, including to my new flame, whom I've known and considered to be a good friend for close to ten years already (she's not super comfortable with the idea of my being a CD but, at least, she knows and it's something we'll need to explore and discuss further... and this makes me afraid not at all, precisely because we're still in the "foundation-laying" stage of our relationship).
Anyway, I just want to say how much I appreciate this thread (thanks, Absaroka, for starting it and thanks to all of you who participate in it); to me, this type of discussion is the bread and butter that keeps me fed and that keeps me coming back here.
Love,
CJ
Kimberly, it's not the "how to be married" manual we should be looking for; rather, it's the "how to be yourself" manual we ought to keep an eye out for. Being ourselves--from the get go--is what will lay the foundations for a happy (read: open, honest, loving, and "communicative") marriage. In reference, for instance, to Donna's post, how can your SO know that you are truly her soulmate if a large part of your soul remains hidden from her? It makes little sense to me.
Thanks for the compliments, y'all, but I have to say that the thoughts and sentiments behind my words differ little from those of so many SO's who have posted here regarding this subject. All we need to do is but listen to what they're saying when they say how they're feeling.
Absaroka, I understand the notion of an individual's private life, his or her "inner world," if you will. I guess I just don't see how important a subject as one's gender identity (or even sexual preferences) can be kept apart from "the state of the union" if that "union" is marriage and that "state" is health or happiness.
Donna, I totally agree with you about "the fear factor." It's true; fear paralyzes us; fear diminishes us. We have one pass at happiness here below; it's an opportunity to grow, not to wither. And although this may sound harsh (I sorta maybe don't mean it to), to those who object to full (and, yes, voluntary) disclosure of their CD'ing to their spouse on the grounds that it stands to topple all they've built, I'd suggest that all they've built (in the absence of honesty) is built on shifting sands. You keep building on this and it will soon topple, regardless.
I realize much of this sounds accusatory. It's not, though. You know me at least well enough to know that I'm the first person to recognize that each person's situation is different and needs to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. Plus, I'm not a marriage counsellor. Period. Still, I see so much self-inflicted wounding--chronic wounding--here that I often wonder why people don't forge ahead, building up who they are, and leave this emotional masochism behind them. Is it really the case that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush? That's fear talking again and I've never believed that to be true. (Please note well that I mean for everything I said in this paragraph to apply to SO's as well as to CD's!)
I also realize that my own situation is quite different than that of many members here. Although I don't "hang out" in privileged CD circles, I'm pretty much out to everyone around me, including to my new flame, whom I've known and considered to be a good friend for close to ten years already (she's not super comfortable with the idea of my being a CD but, at least, she knows and it's something we'll need to explore and discuss further... and this makes me afraid not at all, precisely because we're still in the "foundation-laying" stage of our relationship).
Anyway, I just want to say how much I appreciate this thread (thanks, Absaroka, for starting it and thanks to all of you who participate in it); to me, this type of discussion is the bread and butter that keeps me fed and that keeps me coming back here.
Love,
CJ
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Jess(SO)
- E-mail address not valid - Contact Admin
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:49 am
- Location: North Yorkshire, England
CJ,
THANKS,
I never thought that my comemt about lies and half truths would produce such a wonderful response from so many of us.
Your insight and understanding from both sides is truely amazing.
I second Lydia's suggestion that it should be inscribed in gold letters on silver paper. IN fact have just printed it out for DH to read tonight ------ (before he watches, football n golf on telly some major on which will keep him up till 1am bst)
I continually appreciate the open honesty that we have on this forum along with the huge amount of support we give each other. God bless us all
thans again for your wonderful insight
love jess
THANKS,
I never thought that my comemt about lies and half truths would produce such a wonderful response from so many of us.
Your insight and understanding from both sides is truely amazing.
I second Lydia's suggestion that it should be inscribed in gold letters on silver paper. IN fact have just printed it out for DH to read tonight ------ (before he watches, football n golf on telly some major on which will keep him up till 1am bst)
I continually appreciate the open honesty that we have on this forum along with the huge amount of support we give each other. God bless us all
thans again for your wonderful insight
love jess
* * Email address not current as of 08-29-2009. Please contact SilverLady(SO) immediately! See http://crossdressers-forum.com/forums/v ... php?t=9237 for further information. Thank You!! * *
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Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3344
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
Lots of great replies and I appreciate them all.
Let me say first that yes not telling my wife at all is lying by ommision and not a great thing in a marriage. Period.
Some of my post was musing about if I tell her how much do I tell her? One of the things I have read here many times is similar to the thing Jess posted about no more lies and half truths.
My question for myself is if I tell my wife how much do I tell and at what point do I say I don't want to share every detail and I don't want to lie. I want you to know that I do this, that I keep it private, that I am not sexually active with others when I do it, that I don't think I have a need for you to participate in it but if you wanted to that would probably be okay too, and that I am very concerned about how you feel about it and don't want to impose on you. Yes I sometimes borrow your clothes and no I have never ever borrowed any of our daughters clothing in this context. Or, since our marriage, have I borrowed any other womans clothing.
As for how much did I spend on this particular bra, do I want you to see my entire wardrobe, exactly what did I wear today while no one was home, I'm not sure I want to tell you all that stuff yet, and if you don't want to hear it (quite likely I think) I am fine not sharing it.
As I have said before this wasn't really an issue when we got married. I told her I did it occaisionally which was true at the time. She said she would rather not hear too much about it. Then 17 years later something about me changed and I didn't tell her. Society says my behavior changed in an important way and I have to assume she might agree.
We actually do talk openly about an awful lot of stuff. She is fond of saying that women married to men who never share their secrets and don't show their feelings don't know how lucky they are and I will be the first to admit that I can be emotionally exhausting. So we have the situation of a simultaneously secretive and honest man and belive me it is quite a contradiction.
I should really add at this point that the two people in f2f life I have told about my CDing have both expressed serious doubts about the wisdom of sharing too much of this with my wife. I have to listen to that.
On the other hand...
last week in an intimate moment she said she knew I wanted to wear her nightgown. And that she wanted me to wear it but couldn't be bothered with taking it off. Then she said that we could pretend that she was a man and thus she could keep her nightgown on. We both laughed and agreed that some might consider this to be confusing. later on I did in fact put her nightgowen on and she wore my teeshirt for a bit. But she suddenly seemed less comfortable about it all than when we were joking around.
Key word here I guess is slowly and considerately....
Absaroka
Let me say first that yes not telling my wife at all is lying by ommision and not a great thing in a marriage. Period.
Some of my post was musing about if I tell her how much do I tell her? One of the things I have read here many times is similar to the thing Jess posted about no more lies and half truths.
My question for myself is if I tell my wife how much do I tell and at what point do I say I don't want to share every detail and I don't want to lie. I want you to know that I do this, that I keep it private, that I am not sexually active with others when I do it, that I don't think I have a need for you to participate in it but if you wanted to that would probably be okay too, and that I am very concerned about how you feel about it and don't want to impose on you. Yes I sometimes borrow your clothes and no I have never ever borrowed any of our daughters clothing in this context. Or, since our marriage, have I borrowed any other womans clothing.
As for how much did I spend on this particular bra, do I want you to see my entire wardrobe, exactly what did I wear today while no one was home, I'm not sure I want to tell you all that stuff yet, and if you don't want to hear it (quite likely I think) I am fine not sharing it.
As I have said before this wasn't really an issue when we got married. I told her I did it occaisionally which was true at the time. She said she would rather not hear too much about it. Then 17 years later something about me changed and I didn't tell her. Society says my behavior changed in an important way and I have to assume she might agree.
We actually do talk openly about an awful lot of stuff. She is fond of saying that women married to men who never share their secrets and don't show their feelings don't know how lucky they are and I will be the first to admit that I can be emotionally exhausting. So we have the situation of a simultaneously secretive and honest man and belive me it is quite a contradiction.
I should really add at this point that the two people in f2f life I have told about my CDing have both expressed serious doubts about the wisdom of sharing too much of this with my wife. I have to listen to that.
On the other hand...
last week in an intimate moment she said she knew I wanted to wear her nightgown. And that she wanted me to wear it but couldn't be bothered with taking it off. Then she said that we could pretend that she was a man and thus she could keep her nightgown on. We both laughed and agreed that some might consider this to be confusing. later on I did in fact put her nightgowen on and she wore my teeshirt for a bit. But she suddenly seemed less comfortable about it all than when we were joking around.
Key word here I guess is slowly and considerately....
Absaroka
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon