Do crossdressers have equal rights to their spouses.

[Penni SO]

Hi ya all,

I have a question that may cause an uproar......but I'm going to post it as I was sent a personal email from a member within our own club.


Here it goes...
In everything you read about Transvestism ie.relationships and family it would seem ultimately they are left with the choice to stay or to go.

Crossdressers and TS's alike spend the majority of their lives hiding their secret from loved ones,mates and family pretty much anyone they meet actually.
Till the day they have the courage to tell a friend,partner etc or they are simply caught out.From that very time it is then up to the people told on how they react,how they accept.....The question given to me by the member is why is it written that in a marital relationship the spouse has the right to say ,you lied,you betrayed me thus It's over,the member expressed why can't we have that reaction...well you can't accept,I can't stop this is me...I guess its over...

I won't say anymore as I feel you will probably get the idea.
i n my own eye's it seems simple communication,negotiation,compromise,acknowledgement and respect for each other is what will help in these situations finding the balance for 2 people who without knowing this secret had love,respect and admiration for each other.Yes betrayal and just being honest in the very beginning of any relationship is also the key to a successful relationship with Crossdressing,but we all know the big monster fear,shame and guilt.

So here is the question again,do crossdressers have rights equal to their spouses.

Hugs Penny

[Elizabeth]

Hi Penni,

I am not sure I understand the question entirely, but let me summarize what I have grasped. The question is, does the non-transgendered partner hold all the power or does the crossdresser have equal power?

My feeling is that both parties always have the same power, to stay or to leave. There are other factors that make this not crystal clear. Did the SO know they were marrying a transgendered person? Are there children? Does the marriage have other underlying problems?

I don't feel any marriage should come down to a power struggle. My marriage broke down not because of transsexuality, but because our marriage had underlying problems long before transgenderedness became a forefront issue.

Every spouse always has the right to say "I can't live with the deal we have and I need to renegotiate". Our lives change and how we feel about the world around us changes, this affects our "deal". If the transgendered partner changes the "deal" by exposing secret behavior, namely the transgendered behavior, certainly the other partner has a right to ask for a renegotiation or leaving the marriage.

I am not a proponent for negotiating the behavior because the transgendered person can not control it. It ends up being a series of broken promises that causes incredible damage to the relationship. The transgendered person will agree to almost anything because the fear of rejection is so strong. This causes a return to secret behavior or strong resentments from the transgendered person that feels they still are not able to express themsleves.

This is very difficult to do because the transgendered person has a lot of reason to not say exactly the extent of the feelings, because of fear of rejection. The fear of losing ones family, possessions, being outted, losing job. There is a lot to be afraid of once they get the courage to tell a spouse, or worse when the spouse finds out by accident. It's easy to end up alone, isolated from children, parents, siblings, financial resources and any sense of belonging.

I suggest forgetting about who has power and focus instead on needs. Can each of the married persons meet the needs of the other without suffocating who they are? That goes for both persons. That is the key, but it takes open honest communication and one has to respect the desicions of the other person, regardless of if they can agree with it.

If it comes down to a power struggle, a test of wills, values and egos, everyone will suffer, mostly the kids.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Curly(SO)]

Elizabeth, Very well said, I could not agree more. If one partner in a relationship feels they have more rights or more power than the other, I would say that relationship is doomed to fail or be extremely unhappy.

Both parties have a right to feel however they feel and should have equal right in voicing those feelings, however right or wrong they may seem to the other partner. I would hope that in a loving, respectful relationship this would lead to a deeper understanding and support of one another and not some awful battle of the wills that we so often see happening between CDer and partner.

Love,
Curly.

[DonnaT]

with both Elizabeth and Curly.

[CJ]

with Elizabeth, Curly, and Donna. Couldn't have said it better than Elizabeth, myself!

Love,
CJ

[Jeannie]

Elisabeth you always make sense. But I feel as you do that we are definately the ones more inclined to compromise. We do have the most to lose. Coming out can destroy your career,your friendships and your life in general. The spouse holds all the cards. That's life. They can tell you when to dress, if they even want to see it and if you get a divorce and they tell they're attorney you're screwed big time! If I'm not mistaken Virginia was characterized as an insane pervert by his wifes Attorney. So far from the truth but never the less it will happens.
Our lives are not easy but it's not any easier for the spouse. I can understand how they feel. If you have been with them for many years and come out they feel lied to and betrayed and rightfully so. I did that with Mini and that's my fault not hers. I don't blame her for wanting to live somewhere else. I make jokes about Mini but she is a very intelligent woman and did a great job of raising out kids and is a wonderful caring teacher. I believe it is a very difficult thing for a heterosexual woman who married a man to find out that he is more woman than a man. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I feel.
I'll leave you with my theme song ladies. I've posted it before but it speaks to me. It describes how I've felt my whole life and how I still feel today. It's from Hedwig and the Angry Inch. A song called "Wicked Little Town" It's a beautiful ballad in which Hansel the young boy realizes he is much more than just a boy and his femme side Hedwig are talking about their lives together. It always makes my mascara run ladies. Who wants racoon eyes!

Wicked little town

Forgive me for I did not know
I was just a boy
And you were so much more

Any God could ever plan
More than a woman or a man
And now I understand
How much I took from you

And when everything starts breaking down
You take the pieces off the ground
And show this wicked town
Something beautiful and new

You think that luck has left you there
And maybe there's nothing up in the sky but air

There's no mystical design
No cosmic lover preassigned
There's nothing you can find
That can not be found

And with all the changes you've been through
It seems the strangers always you
Alone again in some new wicked little town

And when you've got no other choice
You know you can't follow my voice
Through the dark turns and noise
Of this wicked little town
It's a wicked little town
Goodbye wicked little town

After coming on this forum a year ago I realized one thing. After speaking with with people like me from Sydney,London,Scotland, Canada and everywhere else in the world. We all have one thing in common. We all live in a Wicked Little Town. Our wicked little town. That's life. Don't cry for me Argentina! I'm ok. It always could be worse. Life is a carnival. Enjoy the ride ladies.Hugs and lipstick kisses. Love you all.



Love
Jeannie

[TracyQ]

Not sure about with their spouses (not all us of have them, you know), but on most "crossdressing" forums, it seems we do not.

Very much straight-oriented, and woe be to anyone would rock the boat.

edit: Why is there a protected SO forum, but none for CD's only? What can't you say in public that you can say amongst yourselves? It's a crock, IMHO. Either we are all equal, or we aren't-and it seems the "SO's" (that alone makes me laugh) have decided that they are a little bit "more" equal than the crossdressers.

[Jenney Love]

Why is there a protected SO forum, but none for CD's only? What can't you say in public that you can say amongst yourselves? It's a crock, IMHO. Either we are all equal, or we aren't-and it seems the "SO's" (that alone makes me laugh) have decided that they are a little bit "more" equal than the crossdressers.

I think it is good that the SO forum be protected from the CDs writing in it. There are those that would only drive away the few SO's that make it here. Though it should not be blocked from our reading it. We can learn so much from reading the thoughts of the SO.

No I do not think there should be a protected CD only forum, I have hid enough and would not write anything in it.

Jenney

[Elizabeth]

edit: Why is there a protected SO forum, but none for CD's only? What can't you say in public that you can say amongst yourselves? It's a crock, IMHO. Either we are all equal, or we aren't-and it seems the "SO's" (that alone makes me laugh) have decided that they are a little bit "more" equal than the crossdressers.

It has nothing to do with equality. This forum is about support. This forum did not always have a protected SO section. The SO's had trouble getting the support they needed because many times where were intimidated by the CD'ers or just did not want thier CDer to be able to see everything they wrote.

We are trying to educate SO's. Help them to understand us. It has been shown that when the SO's do not have a place to themselves where they can talk about and list thier greivences with us, they simply just do not participate or get support. The reason there is not a section where the SO's can not see our posts is simple. We are trying to build trust. In most cases we have acted in secret for many years, sometimes decades. It is good for the CDers and the SO's if the CDers communicate out in the open.

Not all forums are liks this. This forum operates in this manner not as a matter of discrimination, but because it meets the needs of it's members here.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[SilverLady(SO)]

Elizabeth - Thank you!! To paraphrase Gracie (aka Beauty), "I knew if I waited long enough someone would have said it better than I could!"

Jenney - If the SO section was able to be read by the CD's (but they still could not post in it), that in itself would defeat the purpose of having the section off-limits to the CDs.

Tracy - In defense of all the SO's here, there is not a single one of them who has *ever* thought that she was a "little bit more equal than the crossdressers". It appears that you are very bitter towards SO's in general, for whatever reason, and I am sorry that you feel that way.

Penni (SO) - In response to your question, I believe that the CD's do have equal rights in the relationship. All relationships should be an equal partnership. If the relationship is not equally balanced, there *will* be problems which may, or may not, be overcome.




- SL

[Sally]

I was an advocate for the SO’s having their own exclusive section from when the idea was first floated.
I believe it has nothing to do with equal rights, it’s more about SO’s of CDs and TGs having a place where they can discuss sensitive issues with other women who may have more knowledge and experience in the matter, and together they can share their wisdom and act as counselors for each other without interference. I believe that any form of counseling needs to be enacted away from prying eyes or ears or else people will not ‘open up’, and that’s what they’re looking to do and need.

When the SO’s section was open for all to read and enter the discussions we saw at times where the discussion was turned into something bordering on unpleasantness by people who had an axe to grind regarding wives or girlfriends, and that defeated the purpose of that part of the forum which was designed mainly for support and education. I felt that the women were probably stressed enough with their circumstances without becoming targets for people who were looking for ‘pay back’, therefore I feel it’s essential for the women to have their privacy in this case.

I believe all people in relationships have equal rights as to whether they stay, or they leave that relationship for whatever reason, and I also believe that there isn’t a need for a closed section for us as there is for the SO’s for the simple reason that we’re not facing the same emotional problems as the women are, we really do want to get it all out there for all to read and see, most of us have lived in secret far too long in our lives and going back into any form of secrecy serves no useful purpose.

Kind Regards,

Sally.

[DonnaT]

If you want to discuss issues in private with other CDs then I suggest using the forum at http://crossdressers.com/forums/ which has such a private area.

[Absaroka]

I liked a lot of what was said, especially Elizabeth and Curly.

First off if you read Penni's question again part of this is a discussion of concealing and lying by ommision. The CD has by saying nothing represented that they are not a crossdresser. So the spouse has a right to feel uncomfortable about the secrecy, even though the CD may have kept the secret (lied by ommision) for very good reasons.

2nd of all the SO has the weight of convention and public opinion on their side which can make the CD feel very outnumbered.

As to ultimatums both issue them. The SO when they say no crossdressing or I will leave because I can't deal with it and the CD who says I'm going to keep doing it because I have to. Both have said that they have certain things they can't do. The CD may feel rejected but when the SO says I can't accept the cding and the CD says I'm doing it anyway, I can't stop, then the CD has rejected the SO in favor of what they are going to wear. And if what they are going to wear goes to the heart of who they think they are then they are perhaps saying to the spouse that I am perhaps not of the gender you thought I was.

So I guess I would say that within the context of any given relationship these things may vary greatly, and we are confusing societal reaction with spousal power. Which happens all the time.

Power in marriage is a funny thing and often difficult to discern. I have in mind a Hispanic friend who told me that although in a traditional Hispanic family the man makes the decisions and speaks for the family, that the woman tells the man privately what the decision should be. So although the man may appear to have the power in reality there is another power behind the throne......

Which leads to a question for all familys. Who has the power to decide who gets the power? The answer is often far less obvious than it might seen.

Feminists will talk about violence against women as a sign of womens powerlessness. But violence is the last resort of the powerless. How many men become violent because they feel it is the only way they will be taken seriously. After all it is the women who are so good with words, expressing feelings, witholding the love we didn't want to even admit we needed........Not that I am condoning any kind of violence.

So as to who is rejecting who and in what way I don't think we can say there is a single dynamic going on although there may be a number of common themes.

A corrolary is the CD's complaint that women can wear whatever they want but men can't wear dresses. There's been plenty of discussion here however about what happens when a woman wears the wrong dress.

A great question Penni and I love the complexity here.

Oh and by the way I have no problem with a private area for SO's. They are so outnumbered here that it would seem to me to be a good idea anyway.

Absaroka

[Stephanie W]

You ladies enjoy your privacy, as I've always felt if any progress is going to be made, it needs to be done in a comfortable environment for all concerned. Once achieved, who becomes the beneficiaries of that progress? Why, we all do of course! From a better understanding perhaps or simply an opportunity for that person to unload years of frustration. Wouldn't that make anyone feel a whole lot better? To me that far outweighs my need to know what goes on behind closed doors.

Stephanie

[KimberlyS]

..... I believe that the CD's do have equal rights in the relationship. All relationships should be an equal partnership. If the relationship is not equally balanced, there *will* be problems which may, or may not, be overcome. SL

SilverLady, I will agree with you in the fact that both persons usually start out with equal rights. But relationships are constantly changing and most relationship go through different negotiations and compromises as the relationship progresses. And in compromising we give our rights away in some way or they are pulled away through the process. There is a push and take or a pull and give. Usually this happens by choice. Choice to stay within the relationship and choice that it is something that we feel at the time is doable. I think what often happens is one of the spouses compromises more and gives, or one pulls for more control than the other and this often works, but there is also an equilibrium point in the compromising. And based on personality and the persons within a relationship this can work. But in many cases it seems to not work or the amount of the equilibrium / offset in compromising gets out of whack or out of hand. Things that can cause the out of equilibrium may be work/job, CDing , one participating in sports, watching sports, guys night out, gals night out, volleyball, baseball, golf, racing, book club, watching tv or movies, or any activity or activities that push the equilibrium and keep it out too long for one of the spouses to handle.

Based on the personality of the those involved, some times the relationship is pulled out of equilibrium by a stronger personality and other times pushed out buy someone continuing to compromise. I think many of us CDers/TGs are in the push side as we are afraid to loose what we have and so continue to give in and either keep it at a static out of equilibrium that is do able by those in the relationship. And if the spouse knows of the CDing and does not agree with it it becomes them pulling by setting up limits, conditions and hostile environments and the CD continues to give power to the spouse through their continued compromise. But often IMO the amount out of equilibrium continues to increase until our CDing and other things come screaming out to take back some of the equilibrium. Depending on how long and how much the relationship has been out of equilibrium along with the persons involved decides the fate of the relationship.

The equilibrium is usually not affected by just one thing but the whole of what is going on in the relationship. It is just that often those within the relationship seem to focus on one thing to blame even if many other things are to blame. IMHO, many of the times a major part of keeping things out of equilibrium is a lack or break down in communication.

For those that more information and thoughts similar to these there are two good books to read:

His Needs Her Needs by Jr Willard F Harley

The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman

IMO most relationships will be in a equilibrium state very little but will constantly make smaller swings back and forth. It is when the swings begin to take consistently large swings or the swinging happens mostly on one side.

On the topic of SO's having their own area. I agree with those that said it was not about right or wrong. It is about how we/the forum has chosen to provide support. Personally I liked to be able to read what the GG's were writing and learned greatly from it during the time we could read. But I agree greatly that it does not always allow the GG's to open up and get the support they need.

KimberlyS - CD