Ignorant Pastor.

[Lisbeth]

I went to church yesterday like usual and I generally feel good afterward but the Pastor said something that hit me right between the eyes. The message was that we are to love others, no matter who or what they are. This is something I always try to keep in mind.I don't consider myself a bible thumper by any means but I do believe. When he was naming different types of people that we shouls be understanding about and pray for the first people he mentioned were cross-dressers followed by gays, lesbians, etc. I was and still am greatly upset! He grouped me and others like me (all of us) into a catagory that he doesn't understand at all. I wanted to write him a letter trying to explain that I am not gay. I'm also not a pedophile or a sexual deviate. I am just a man that enjoys dressing as a female from time to time and I'm not going to apologize for it. I learned about my need to cross dress before I understood who and what God was and in my heart of hearts I don't believe I'm sinning. I'm so pissed off that I don't know what to do. Any feed back? I don't want to sart a big thing about religion and all that but I'd like some input to help me put this behind me. Thanks. On a lighter note, my wife is doing fine with my "other half" and I thank you all for the advice and support. I really think we're doing fine. Thanks for letting me vent a little. I'm so glad you're all there. I get strength from all of you. Thanks.

[Georgia(SO)]

Lisbeth,

I understand where you are coming from. A couple of things I would suggest that you keep in mind -

First, your pastor is to be commended for preaching that we are to love one another, even if he was clumsy and tacky in naming the types of people we are supposed to be generous with. Clumsy or not, it is far better than preaching that people who are different from us are the devil's minions...

Secondly, although we expect our pastors to be above such stuff, they are human too and many find it easy to fall back on the "lightning rod" sins - homosexuality, CDing, abortion, etc. Just once I'd like to hear a preacher thump the Bible about "thou shalt not beat thy wife..." But I digress. I'm sorry that this happens, but the general lay person *does* lump CDing in with being gay. It takes a good bit of education (or reading Ann Landers a whole lot) to realize that a man who dresses like a woman does not necessarily wish to be with a man who dresses like a man. While there is nothing for you to apologize for, your pastor has made a common error.

Thirdly, you may wish to find a different church. Not all pastors, nor all denominations, feel the need to point out the particular *sinners* that should be prayed for. That also happens to be one of my pet peeves with preachers - they point out certain groups of people and use them as an example.

My question, however, is whether you are upset because he lumped you in with gays or are you upset because he felt the need to point out that CDing, homosexuality and other non-straight behavior is a "sin"?

-g(so)

[KimberlyS]

Lisbeth,

This type of thing is what has turned me off on the organized church, even if the church I am a member of is one of the more accepting churches as a whole, all of the people within the church do not hold the same views and can have some significantly different beliefs.

I am with Georgia and would like to know what specifically was it that you are specifically upset about, " because he lumped you in with gays or are you upset because he felt the need to point out that CDing, homosexuality and other non-straight behavior is a "sin"?"? I know I personally took a long look at that question within myself the past few years.

I would also be interested in what your wifes view was of his sermon if you or her would like to share.

[DonnaT]

. . . he was naming different types of people that we shouls be understanding about and pray for the first people he mentioned were cross-dressers followed by gays, lesbians, etc. I was and still am greatly upset! He grouped me . . . into a catagory that he doesn't understand at all.

How do you know he doesn't understand? He may be a CD himself.

Note that we are, and may be, in our lifetime, forever lumped with the GLB community, since we are known as the GLBT community.

. . . I wanted to write him a letter trying to explain that I am not gay. I'm also not a pedophile or a sexual deviate.

If he actually said CDing was a sin, then by all means write him a letter. Print off the web page at http://members.tgforum.com/bobbyg/deut22v5.html and mail it to him.

Did he actually mention pedophile? If so, point out to him that pedophiles actually hurt others by their acts. Crossdressing hurts no one.

Now, we have only your report of what was said, but if he just preached tolerance of the GLBT community, then I see nothing to get upset about. If you are merely upset because he lumped CDs and Gays together, and made no mention of sin, then it sounds like you've a problem with the gay community. If so, then you need to listen to the preacher and be as tolerant of the gays as you want them to be tolerant of you.

. . . On a lighter note, my wife is doing fine with my "other half" and I thank you all for the advice and support. I really think we're doing fine.

That good to hear. Congratulations

[Stephanie W]

Lisbeth

From what you told us, I would agree with Georgia that his delivery was on the tacky side. As with the majority of the uninformed, perhaps your pastor was simply ignorant of the nuances of what it means to be a transgendered person. Don't hold that against him, he just may need a little education. My advice is to write him a letter. You don't have to sign it if you're not comfortable doing so, but I would thank him for his sermon, but stress that you felt his categorization of crossdressers was a little misleading and proceed on to explain why. The message of loving everyone regardless of proclivity is a positive one, but inaccurate information can leave the congregation with a misconception, which could be an impediment to a greater tolerance and understanding in some people.

Stephanie

[Virginia]

Lisbeth,
Like Absaroka wrote, I have been turned off by "structured religion" as well, but that is another story! Two things for me come to mind. When someone takes "that position" my response is, "So you feel God is perfect? You feel God cannot make a mistake? Well, here stands Virginia, what do you think?"
My EX father-in-law, a Brethren minister, and his wife were "discussing" with me my cross-dressing (they have/had never seen Virginia). Anyway, this went on for a couple of hours and being the gracious son-in-law, I sat and listened patiently, then at the "right moment" I said something to the effect that, "Gee, it seems that each Halloween, "W' (my father-in-law) choses to dress in full "female battle dress" (wig, make-up, dress, heels, pocketbook, hose, etc) and he has done it every Halloween since I have been in this family - what 26 years!?" My mother-in-law LEAPED to his defense with the classic, "Well, that is only once a year!" Then down came the hammer! "How many times does it take!?" You know they never mentioned it again! Funny about that huh!!!?
Now to the letter, I think that you are just stirring up something that could be left alone. Religious zealots are virtually impossible to convince of anything. As for leaving the church, that is a family decision and should be discussed in depth before that is done.
Please, this is an important topic and some of your sisters may be in the same situation and I would hope you will share with us what your thought process is on this and what you do as it develops.
Love,
Virginia

[Absaroka]

Lots of good replies that I can't improve upon. I think it is good that he is preaching love and unfortunate that he felt the need to imply these groups of people are inherently sinful. But that is how many people believe. He may personally have been moving forward by preaching love rather than rejection..

The Bible says that it is easier for the camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven. Nothing about rich women but that's another issue.....I would submit that if you have enough to eat, are free of disease and can live in a relatively safe place than you are rich. So we are all in deep need of God's forgiveness. But the only time that topic ever seems to come up is before they pass the plate.

Bottom line is each and every one of us sometimes does wrong things. Each and every one of us needs to be forgiven. I don't know why certain groups have to be singled out as "the other" but it seems to be human nature.

Absaroka

[Lisbeth]

Thanks for all the great input and thank you, Donna T for that web site. I realize that I may have been a little sensitive to his call for prayer and forgiveness for my being what God made me. I consider myself a very active member of my church, working there a few days a week, one of the ushers, possibly an Elder one day and it somehow felt like he took all that away from me by basically saying I was a worse sinner than most because I like to dress as a woman. It just seemed to take the wind out of my sails that morning. I was also sitting next to my step-daughter and that just made me more uneasy as she doesn't know. I realize that he is just from the old school and just doesn't care to understand. I'm still toying with the idea of writing a letter anonymously and including the web site Donna gave me but I doubt it would change anything. As it is I'm calmer now and it's okay. I know Jesus loves me and the rest of his opinion he can keep. I figure if he can pray for me and "forgive" me for being who I am then I can pray for him and his family and "forgive" his ignorance. Maybe even a prayer for enlightenment. Again, Thank you all for all your great input and for letting me spout off. Love, Lisbeth

[Kyra]

Hi Lisbeth,

Religious issues are always difficult to talk about because so many people are passionate about their faith. After reading everything posted here, I have little to add. Georgia's post is dead on and makes a lot of sense.

You may find comfort in the fact that not all pastors are so ignorant. As good as his intentions were, he could probably use a little more information on crossdressers.

I, like you, was very involved with my church. I told my pastor when my wife and I were having difficulties. He didn't judge me. He told me he didn't have much experience with CDs and suggested someone who did. I would surmise that your pastor has very little information on CDs. Seminary probably doesn't delve too far into the subject.

My suggestion is to write a letter. Include the website Donna provided. It's a good source for people who are dealing with Christians and Crossdressing. Annonymous or not, it would be a good start.

Good luck and God bless,
Kyra

[MLee(SO)]

I wish to express support for you in what the SO’s and your sisters have shared here.
They put it nicely and I really can not add anymore with out sounding redundant.

Georgia(SO) said:
First, your pastor is to be commended for preaching that we are to love one another, even if he was clumsy and tacky in naming the types of people we are supposed to be generous with. Clumsy or not, it is far better than preaching that people who are different from us are the devil's minions...


Food for thought;
The Pastor is just a man with his own issues, judgments and values as well as his own interpretations of behavior and the like.
Not all Pastors think alike.
Man makes mistakes Virginia has so eloquently put it.
IMHO, our relationship is ours alone with our God (the only perfection)
Tolerance and loving each other is the main message here I believe.
Church is for sinners on many levels is it not why we go?
I don’t wish to invalidate your upset here, nor do I wish to explain away what he was trying in his stumbling way so awkwardly asking for others to pray for others is not such a bad thing as we all need any help we can get, at least I do.
Don’t hold it against him, inaccurate information and misunderstanding is in all things.
We read verses out of the same Book, we don’t always see the same thing some one sitting next to us may perceive it
God Bless

[Karren Hutton]

WOW... I consider myself lucky to be a hethen... lol And I have heard others slam crossdressers...... and it really doesn't bother me because they don't understand.... At a mining conference a government official stood up and said "when I took this job most people thought I didn't know the difference between a dragline and a drag queen"... The audiance burst out laughing.... including me... And it was a slam to crossdressers but it was funny at the time especially since I had a full set of lingerie under my male suit!!! And left the conference early and changed and went out shopping enfemme that afternoon....

Soooo, don't let those #@#$%# get you down, your better than them....

Love Karren

[AnnaMaria]

Lisbeth,

I spent a lot of time in my younger years with a "bible thumper" maternal grandmother who never really got the notion that we should accept and pray for all no matter who they are. Therefore, I was very intolerent of people who were different from what society considered as "normal" for a long time.

Then I went to basic training and began to really see how my own intolerence effected others by way of how the military deals with people who are not "normal" and I begant to realize that just because people were different did not give me the right to reject them just becasue they wanted to be themselves.

Then when I started to explore my own nature and what it was that was causing me to always feel like I didn't really fit in with those around me that I was suppose to fit with I truely began to understand what it was that had caused me to feel a form of rejection of the way that the "establishment" dealt with people who were different.

As for the religious aspect, I would have to say that your pastor is undereducated in the differences between the different types of alternate lifestyles that exist in society today. He was more than likely taught that all of them were a sin and that there is no difference because of that fact. But, more to the point I would have to say that I have become accustom to being lumped in with all the other "sinners" simply because of society's religiously driven view of what is considered "normal".

Personally I would have to say that a letter to your pastor would be a really good idea simply as a more direct form of education than a way of expressing your disapproval of the way in which he chose to refer to the GLBT community as a whole. I truly believe that if more religious leaders around the world were given the proper education about this that there would be a lot less intolerence of difference in general. No matter what the difference is or who the person or people are.

But, at the same time I would suggest that you stop and take the time to examine what actually caused you to become upset in the first place and use that knowledge to learn from in your own life as well as how you deal with others in your life in general. Because lets face it, if we as a part of the "alternate lifestyle community" can't accept everyone around us without reguard to who they are then how can we justify expecting others to accept who we are, thereby allowing us to be who we are without fear of reprisal from the undereducated masses.

Just a side note: I don't personally consider myself to be a religious person though I do consider myself to be a spiritual person. But that is a subject better left for another time and another topic all together.

Good luck and I hope this helps in some way

Anna

[Bernice]

This may be a profoundly stupid idea... Only one expedient way to find out...

Lisbeth, while it is important that you remain anonymous on this forum, there is no reason I see that your pastor has to remain anonymous. Give us your pastor's contact information (in Central New Jersey I presume), and have all of us write letters!

If you would prefer to first see a sample of what I might say, then PM me, and I will compose such a (draft) letter. In such a letter, I would not feel compelled to mention this site at all, so even if your avatar were recognizable, your pastor would have to be unconscionably vindictive to go to that much effort to try to find out who you are.

Hugs,

Bernice

[Georgia(SO)]

hehehe...
-g(so)

[Tekla]

as Lazurus Long said:

The profession of minister has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the minister is on the moral level of any other con man.

Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful---just stupid.)