Tiffany,
You are articulating your frustration well.
I wasn't clear from your post about how recently he revealed this to you.
Hiding embarrassment is not lying, no matter how many times you say it is. I'd agree he was not forthcoming to you about this issue, which really brings up how trustworthy he is.
However, your reaction to this also tells me he wasn't wrong in keeping this from you. I wouldn't say that this is a positive aspect of your relationship with him.
You're understandably angry. However, that anger won't do anything constructive for the marriage.
My advice would be a marriage counselor first, and a seperation second, or possibly both together. And make the effort to find a counselor with some background in transgender issues.
Maybe with some time apart the two of you can find reasons to stay together, and reasons to enjoy each others company.
Good luck,
Chris
Trials & Tribulations of a New SO
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KathyB
- Miss Platinum Goddess
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Tiffany: I'm so sorry to hear things have been a bit rough for you. As has already been mentioned, it's very possible the unbelievably generous and understanding experience you shared in shaving Joe's beard then artfully applying Jennifer's makeup stirred some new and extremely deep feelings s/he's never had before.
I'll share with you my own personal experience, and it might help you to understand your husband a bit more. I lived with this very personal secret for over thirty years, hiding it at home even for many years when I was single. After so long, hiding and not sharing it becomes an unconscious habit. Even when it's our loving and accepting spouse, this long-practiced habit is not easy to break. While hiding it for so long, we've never been able to fully understand and appreciate everything it entails. We have never had anyone to discuss it with, and words aren't something many guys are good with in the first place, much less attempting to describe feminine feelings with our limited male vocabulary and emotions.
I'd suspect Jennifer wants more, but Joe is still afraid to tell you. The old habits of secrecy and hiding are still ingrained, but the desires for a wig and breast forms were probably HUGE after seeing her face with well-applied makeup. Many CDs are notoriously sloppy or careless with their makeup for many years for a number of reasons: big hands and fingers, lack of artistic ability, ridiculously little practice, noone to share and learn with, and worst of all the damned urge to hide it and clean it off quickly. That's what we lived with for many years, and suddenly having to share it is not an easy task. I imagine the face Jennifer saw in the mirror was many times prettier than Joe had ever made it, especially with the beard gone.
I don't want you to think I'm excusing or explaining away any of Joe's recent behavior, because I'm not. I'm hoping to describe for him (and especially for you) how he could be feeling. Those new feelings might be more intense than he could have ever imagined, he's probably incapable of understanding them (yet), and he's not comfortable attempting to explain them to you. You've shown unbelievable compassion and understanding, and your articulate and well-written messages help us all understand your situation better.
I hope with time and patience, Jennifer can come out of her shell and talk with you about how she feels after hiding for so many years. In the meantime, Joe will have to understand that cross-dressing, wigs, breast forms, lingerie, and dresses are not the problem, but hiding them and especially their expense from you is. You're obviously willing to share, talk, and understand as much as possible, and you expect the same in return. I don't think that's too much to expect. I wish you peace and love, and untold tons of patience in teaching Jennifer worlds of things she's never been able to experience and learn before.
I'll share with you my own personal experience, and it might help you to understand your husband a bit more. I lived with this very personal secret for over thirty years, hiding it at home even for many years when I was single. After so long, hiding and not sharing it becomes an unconscious habit. Even when it's our loving and accepting spouse, this long-practiced habit is not easy to break. While hiding it for so long, we've never been able to fully understand and appreciate everything it entails. We have never had anyone to discuss it with, and words aren't something many guys are good with in the first place, much less attempting to describe feminine feelings with our limited male vocabulary and emotions.
I'd suspect Jennifer wants more, but Joe is still afraid to tell you. The old habits of secrecy and hiding are still ingrained, but the desires for a wig and breast forms were probably HUGE after seeing her face with well-applied makeup. Many CDs are notoriously sloppy or careless with their makeup for many years for a number of reasons: big hands and fingers, lack of artistic ability, ridiculously little practice, noone to share and learn with, and worst of all the damned urge to hide it and clean it off quickly. That's what we lived with for many years, and suddenly having to share it is not an easy task. I imagine the face Jennifer saw in the mirror was many times prettier than Joe had ever made it, especially with the beard gone.
I don't want you to think I'm excusing or explaining away any of Joe's recent behavior, because I'm not. I'm hoping to describe for him (and especially for you) how he could be feeling. Those new feelings might be more intense than he could have ever imagined, he's probably incapable of understanding them (yet), and he's not comfortable attempting to explain them to you. You've shown unbelievable compassion and understanding, and your articulate and well-written messages help us all understand your situation better.
I hope with time and patience, Jennifer can come out of her shell and talk with you about how she feels after hiding for so many years. In the meantime, Joe will have to understand that cross-dressing, wigs, breast forms, lingerie, and dresses are not the problem, but hiding them and especially their expense from you is. You're obviously willing to share, talk, and understand as much as possible, and you expect the same in return. I don't think that's too much to expect. I wish you peace and love, and untold tons of patience in teaching Jennifer worlds of things she's never been able to experience and learn before.
Last edited by KathyB on Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Formerly called Zippy
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Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
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- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
Tiffany I'm glad this pregnancy is going well. I hadn't realized that you already had children together, which puts a very different perspective on some of my speculation. Also I seem to have forgotten that you caught him rather than him coming forward to you.
Even so the central point made by many here remains-that it will take Joe a long time to come to terms with you knowing something he tried so hard to hide for so long.
There's a lot of literature out there. Helen Boyd has a good book out called My Husband Betty which is writen from a wifes perspective. She makes the point that to many women the dishonesty is more difficult than the cross dressing itself. You're definitely not alone in feeling this way.
It does seem that wives get stuck with a lot when it comes to terms with their husbands crossdressing. Doing the whole mindreading thing, being supportive and sensitive to moods and so on. A lot of crossdressers try to do this with their wives as well but sometimes we do not do a good job of it.
Dierdre McClosky also wrote a book called Crossings with was about transexuality. Which is not what many crossdressers are. She made the interesting observation that when families of crossdressers would get together the men would sit around in their dresses talking about getting in touch with their inner woman while the wives did the dishes. Or something like that.
We can be self centered and clumsy and not show how much we really love someone or how we really feel about a lot of stuff. And that's on good days and with easy issues. This is not an easy issue, even if you are able to accept it relatively well. I hope you'll give this some time.
Sometimes the most honest thing we can say to someone is that there is something I don't want to talk about right now. If you want him to be truthful, then you may need to be prepared to hear that truth.
Hope it goes well. Hang in there. I hope this pregnancy keeps going smoothly also.
Absaroka
Even so the central point made by many here remains-that it will take Joe a long time to come to terms with you knowing something he tried so hard to hide for so long.
There's a lot of literature out there. Helen Boyd has a good book out called My Husband Betty which is writen from a wifes perspective. She makes the point that to many women the dishonesty is more difficult than the cross dressing itself. You're definitely not alone in feeling this way.
It does seem that wives get stuck with a lot when it comes to terms with their husbands crossdressing. Doing the whole mindreading thing, being supportive and sensitive to moods and so on. A lot of crossdressers try to do this with their wives as well but sometimes we do not do a good job of it.
Dierdre McClosky also wrote a book called Crossings with was about transexuality. Which is not what many crossdressers are. She made the interesting observation that when families of crossdressers would get together the men would sit around in their dresses talking about getting in touch with their inner woman while the wives did the dishes. Or something like that.
We can be self centered and clumsy and not show how much we really love someone or how we really feel about a lot of stuff. And that's on good days and with easy issues. This is not an easy issue, even if you are able to accept it relatively well. I hope you'll give this some time.
Sometimes the most honest thing we can say to someone is that there is something I don't want to talk about right now. If you want him to be truthful, then you may need to be prepared to hear that truth.
Hope it goes well. Hang in there. I hope this pregnancy keeps going smoothly also.
Absaroka
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
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ShamrockFaerie(SO)
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Well, the talk didn't happen last night..... We ended up with a very fussy teething baby who monopolized my time until almost midnight. But Joe did share a few things with me that I'd like to share here.
It seems you guys were right on target. Our "makeup date" brought alot of really complex feelings to the front of Joe's psyche. That's all he said, but that's all I really needed.... I think I'm starting to understand. I think that Joe limited his CDing in his own mind to just a sexual thing for many many years. He convinced himself that no one would understand or accept this even as a fetish and thought that once I accepted it as a fetish (which is how he presented it to me originally) that would be it. He figured he was "done" and he still had his wife and family. Big relief. Until he started opening himself to the idea that this might not be a simple fetish. Then he thought that I would think he was lying again, and he didn't want to "open a new can of worms" so soon after I originally found out.
What I don't think he understands, and what I intend to discuss with him tonight, is that I know this is a process. I realize that his needs and desires will change over time (just like everyone else's do as we grow and mature) and that what he tells me today might change tommorrow. I understand and accept that at a very deep level. So he doesn't need to be afraid to tell me if something changes. But reverting back to "super secret" mode is a death sentance for our marriage. If I'm in the dark, then I'll be afraid like a child who believes there are monsters under their bed, and it's not fair for him to put me through that.
Another thing he said last night was that he thought I'd be "freaked out" by the makeup and I wasn't. Well DUH! My best friend in the world makes her living doing make-up for professional drag queens.... I've assisted her on MANY occasions. I've frequented drag clubs and shows. I've seen some of the best and most convincing female impersonators in the world. Christ, I've walked through the East Village at 2am. Seeing my husband in full make-up DOESN'T SCARE ME! I told him the make-up didn't scare me, but his pores did, and if he ever wants to pass, he needs to look into microderm abrasion or something. We both laughed. Maybe he's a little overwhelmed or surprised by my acceptance and is still having trouble believing it's real. I think maybe he's waiting for the "other shoe" to drop, so to speak.
So another topic of conversation is going to be about that "other shoe" and what my boundaries actually are. Yes, I'm accepting and I love my husband, but even I have some boundaries. First, I don't ever want him to dress in front of our kids. At least not until they are old enough for us to sit down and talk to them about what CDing is. I figure that will happen about the same time they are able to understand my bisexuality, and perhaps we can combine the discussions into a larger topic of alternative sexuality and unconditional love. Secondly, I don't ever want him to go out on the town dressed without me. That's the trust thing. I don't want strangers experiencing that intimate side of my husband. It might be irrational, but it's where I'M at right now, so I hope he'll accept and understand that. Third, he doesn't get to use my underwear, my clothing, my makeup, or my hair products. He has to get his own. Fourth, he has to TELL me if he purchases anything. Not ask me, but tell me. I don't want to be granting permission per se, but I just need to know where our finances are sitting. And finally, he has to be open and honest with me about this process and not hide anymore.
I know that last one might be the hardest of all, as many of the previous posters have mentioned. Yes, I realize that after years of hiding and secrecy he has habits that are going to be hard to identify and even harder to break. That's why he needs my help to do it. It's too hard for him to do all this by himself and alone.... He proved that already by the way he royally screwed up in trying to keep the secret from me in the first place. If he continues to do this alone, it will always be sick behavior and it will always be painful for him (and for our family). If he learns to ask for help (and accept it), maybe he will learn that it doesn't always HAVE to be sick behavior, and it CAN be something really positive for our relationship.
So hopefully we won't have any obstacles tonight and we can really talk about things. I'll keep you all updated, and if any of you have any other suggestions of things we should talk about, please let me know.
It seems you guys were right on target. Our "makeup date" brought alot of really complex feelings to the front of Joe's psyche. That's all he said, but that's all I really needed.... I think I'm starting to understand. I think that Joe limited his CDing in his own mind to just a sexual thing for many many years. He convinced himself that no one would understand or accept this even as a fetish and thought that once I accepted it as a fetish (which is how he presented it to me originally) that would be it. He figured he was "done" and he still had his wife and family. Big relief. Until he started opening himself to the idea that this might not be a simple fetish. Then he thought that I would think he was lying again, and he didn't want to "open a new can of worms" so soon after I originally found out.
What I don't think he understands, and what I intend to discuss with him tonight, is that I know this is a process. I realize that his needs and desires will change over time (just like everyone else's do as we grow and mature) and that what he tells me today might change tommorrow. I understand and accept that at a very deep level. So he doesn't need to be afraid to tell me if something changes. But reverting back to "super secret" mode is a death sentance for our marriage. If I'm in the dark, then I'll be afraid like a child who believes there are monsters under their bed, and it's not fair for him to put me through that.
Another thing he said last night was that he thought I'd be "freaked out" by the makeup and I wasn't. Well DUH! My best friend in the world makes her living doing make-up for professional drag queens.... I've assisted her on MANY occasions. I've frequented drag clubs and shows. I've seen some of the best and most convincing female impersonators in the world. Christ, I've walked through the East Village at 2am. Seeing my husband in full make-up DOESN'T SCARE ME! I told him the make-up didn't scare me, but his pores did, and if he ever wants to pass, he needs to look into microderm abrasion or something. We both laughed. Maybe he's a little overwhelmed or surprised by my acceptance and is still having trouble believing it's real. I think maybe he's waiting for the "other shoe" to drop, so to speak.
So another topic of conversation is going to be about that "other shoe" and what my boundaries actually are. Yes, I'm accepting and I love my husband, but even I have some boundaries. First, I don't ever want him to dress in front of our kids. At least not until they are old enough for us to sit down and talk to them about what CDing is. I figure that will happen about the same time they are able to understand my bisexuality, and perhaps we can combine the discussions into a larger topic of alternative sexuality and unconditional love. Secondly, I don't ever want him to go out on the town dressed without me. That's the trust thing. I don't want strangers experiencing that intimate side of my husband. It might be irrational, but it's where I'M at right now, so I hope he'll accept and understand that. Third, he doesn't get to use my underwear, my clothing, my makeup, or my hair products. He has to get his own. Fourth, he has to TELL me if he purchases anything. Not ask me, but tell me. I don't want to be granting permission per se, but I just need to know where our finances are sitting. And finally, he has to be open and honest with me about this process and not hide anymore.
I know that last one might be the hardest of all, as many of the previous posters have mentioned. Yes, I realize that after years of hiding and secrecy he has habits that are going to be hard to identify and even harder to break. That's why he needs my help to do it. It's too hard for him to do all this by himself and alone.... He proved that already by the way he royally screwed up in trying to keep the secret from me in the first place. If he continues to do this alone, it will always be sick behavior and it will always be painful for him (and for our family). If he learns to ask for help (and accept it), maybe he will learn that it doesn't always HAVE to be sick behavior, and it CAN be something really positive for our relationship.
So hopefully we won't have any obstacles tonight and we can really talk about things. I'll keep you all updated, and if any of you have any other suggestions of things we should talk about, please let me know.
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DonnaT
- Miss Great Goddess
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Sounds quite reasonable to me Tiffany. Good luck with the talk.ShamrockFaerie(SO) wrote:So another topic of conversation is going to be about that "other shoe" and what my boundaries actually are. Yes, I'm accepting and I love my husband, but even I have some boundaries. First, I don't ever want him to dress in front of our kids. At least not until they are old enough for us to sit down and talk to them about what CDing is. I figure that will happen about the same time they are able to understand my bisexuality, and perhaps we can combine the discussions into a larger topic of alternative sexuality and unconditional love. Secondly, I don't ever want him to go out on the town dressed without me. That's the trust thing. I don't want strangers experiencing that intimate side of my husband. It might be irrational, but it's where I'M at right now, so I hope he'll accept and understand that. Third, he doesn't get to use my underwear, my clothing, my makeup, or my hair products. He has to get his own. Fourth, he has to TELL me if he purchases anything. Not ask me, but tell me. I don't want to be granting permission per se, but I just need to know where our finances are sitting. And finally, he has to be open and honest with me about this process and not hide anymore..
You might want to print what you wrote, let him read it, and then have the talk (questions and answers).
DonnaT
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KathyB
- Miss Platinum Goddess
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- Location: Charlotte, NC
Tiffany: I'm so very happy to read that you're both talking, and able to move forward with this. We tell everyone "baby steps" but not everyone realizes it works for both the CD and his/her SO. In your case, you're more comfortable with bringing things to the fore than Jennifer is, and baby steps are needed with gaining Tiffany's full trust and security. As soon as s/he realizes how accepting you're willing to be, everything will become much easier. Please keep talking, keep writing, and keep trying. You're a fantastic woman for trying so hard. 
Formerly called Zippy
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Elizabeth
- Miss Ruby Goddess
- Posts: 1878
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 3:02 am
Tiffany,
Has it dawned on you that he may be having a really difficult time accepting who he is? I know with me, it was way easier to say I was a crossdresser than to admit I was TS. Because if one is TS, the road only leads one place and the consequences are huge.
I don't think it's so much he is hiding from you as it is he is hiding from himself. The inappropriate anger is what tipped me off. I don't think he is lying to you. I think he is lying to himself. He is going to need time. There really is no other way.
It's a process and one has to take it one step at a time. Very few people just come out and accept this about themselves right away. The problem is, the longer you don't tell anyone how you feel about yourself, the harder it is to tell anyone, even those you love the most.
I am not saying he is TS, just that if it is even a little bit more than he is comfortable with, it's difficult to accept. I hid for years, telling myself I was insane, not TS. That I clearly had a mans body and the best thing to do would be to accept it. There was a time when nothing could have gotten me to fess up. I just wasn't ready.
I hope this helps in some small way.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Has it dawned on you that he may be having a really difficult time accepting who he is? I know with me, it was way easier to say I was a crossdresser than to admit I was TS. Because if one is TS, the road only leads one place and the consequences are huge.
I don't think it's so much he is hiding from you as it is he is hiding from himself. The inappropriate anger is what tipped me off. I don't think he is lying to you. I think he is lying to himself. He is going to need time. There really is no other way.
It's a process and one has to take it one step at a time. Very few people just come out and accept this about themselves right away. The problem is, the longer you don't tell anyone how you feel about yourself, the harder it is to tell anyone, even those you love the most.
I am not saying he is TS, just that if it is even a little bit more than he is comfortable with, it's difficult to accept. I hid for years, telling myself I was insane, not TS. That I clearly had a mans body and the best thing to do would be to accept it. There was a time when nothing could have gotten me to fess up. I just wasn't ready.
I hope this helps in some small way.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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ShamrockFaerie(SO)
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Elizabeth - You're right on target.
We talked last night and he said that what he DOESN'T know is alot more than what he DOES know. But he told me what he DOES know.
He said he knows he is not TS, but he thinks he is definitely more than a transvestic fetishist. He said he knows he doesn't currently want to transition, and he can't forsee that being a desire of his in the future. He said he enjoys being a man and wouldn't want to be dressed as a woman all the time, but he's not sure how much he wants to dress. He also said that he is very confused, but he promised to talk to me about his confusion from here on out. He appologized for how he had been acting and told me he was just so used to bottling everything up and hiding that it's become like an instict or a protection mechanism for him, but that he would try to overcome that. He's also concerned about the cost of all this and asked me to help him find affordable breastforms. He promised he wouldn't buy anything without my knowledge and blessing.
I assured him that I understand this is a process and I know he won't have all the answers today or tommorrow or even next week or next year. I just want to be a part of that process. He promised to talk to me more about what is going on with him and he promised not to keep secrets from me. He also aggreed to my "terms" for this and said he thought they were reasonable.
So we're working through things. He said he's sort of uncomfortable right now meeting anyone from the forum or going out in public dressed at all (he had mentioned he wanted to go out in public before, but now I think he's just feeling a bit insecure) and that I should give him some time to figure everything out. I told him that wouldn't be a problem and we need time to perfect his look before Jennifer's "debut" anyway. He smiled when I said that. I told him that when he feels comfortable dressed just around me, then we would start talking about ways and means and places to go out. He aggreed that he needs to take "baby steps" and that feeling comfortable with me and in his own skin was definitely the first step. I encouraged him again to talk to other CDers, that they might be able to give him some valuable perspective and suggestions, but he's still warming up to that idea. I think it's because NO ONE BUT ME knows about this, and he's afraid to share it with "strangers" right now. He's just not comfortable enough with it yet to talk about it with anyone except his loving wife. But I'm sure he'll wander into some forum (hopefully this one) some day and start opening up. Just not today.
The talk wasn't a long one, but it cleared the air and I understand ALOT more where Joe is in this process and how I can help him. So I feel much better (and judging from the amazing sex we had last night after the talk, so does he!
). Hopefully we can continue to grow and learn together, because we love each other SO SO SO much..... I just know that as long as we are communicating and honest with each other, we can and will make this work.
We talked last night and he said that what he DOESN'T know is alot more than what he DOES know. But he told me what he DOES know.
He said he knows he is not TS, but he thinks he is definitely more than a transvestic fetishist. He said he knows he doesn't currently want to transition, and he can't forsee that being a desire of his in the future. He said he enjoys being a man and wouldn't want to be dressed as a woman all the time, but he's not sure how much he wants to dress. He also said that he is very confused, but he promised to talk to me about his confusion from here on out. He appologized for how he had been acting and told me he was just so used to bottling everything up and hiding that it's become like an instict or a protection mechanism for him, but that he would try to overcome that. He's also concerned about the cost of all this and asked me to help him find affordable breastforms. He promised he wouldn't buy anything without my knowledge and blessing.
I assured him that I understand this is a process and I know he won't have all the answers today or tommorrow or even next week or next year. I just want to be a part of that process. He promised to talk to me more about what is going on with him and he promised not to keep secrets from me. He also aggreed to my "terms" for this and said he thought they were reasonable.
So we're working through things. He said he's sort of uncomfortable right now meeting anyone from the forum or going out in public dressed at all (he had mentioned he wanted to go out in public before, but now I think he's just feeling a bit insecure) and that I should give him some time to figure everything out. I told him that wouldn't be a problem and we need time to perfect his look before Jennifer's "debut" anyway. He smiled when I said that. I told him that when he feels comfortable dressed just around me, then we would start talking about ways and means and places to go out. He aggreed that he needs to take "baby steps" and that feeling comfortable with me and in his own skin was definitely the first step. I encouraged him again to talk to other CDers, that they might be able to give him some valuable perspective and suggestions, but he's still warming up to that idea. I think it's because NO ONE BUT ME knows about this, and he's afraid to share it with "strangers" right now. He's just not comfortable enough with it yet to talk about it with anyone except his loving wife. But I'm sure he'll wander into some forum (hopefully this one) some day and start opening up. Just not today.
The talk wasn't a long one, but it cleared the air and I understand ALOT more where Joe is in this process and how I can help him. So I feel much better (and judging from the amazing sex we had last night after the talk, so does he!
). Hopefully we can continue to grow and learn together, because we love each other SO SO SO much..... I just know that as long as we are communicating and honest with each other, we can and will make this work.-
Carol Ann
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Tiffany,
I had to laugh at your post, my wife makes me buy all my own stuff (hand lotion, moisturizer, makeup etc.) No it's our money but I have to purchase it myself. If I order something on line like my new heels I tell her and when we shop I put my stuff right in the basket with everything else. Makes buying a bra or stocking much easier and she know what I am getting. I don't hide nothing from her.
I had to laugh at your post, my wife makes me buy all my own stuff (hand lotion, moisturizer, makeup etc.) No it's our money but I have to purchase it myself. If I order something on line like my new heels I tell her and when we shop I put my stuff right in the basket with everything else. Makes buying a bra or stocking much easier and she know what I am getting. I don't hide nothing from her.