I know that some of us get all excited about things like removing bodily hair in various places and so on. Well my 17 year old daughter just told us she needs a new bikini and she likes the Victoria's Secret one. We will leave aside the issue of am I ready for my daughter to be shopping at VS. To me last years swim suit looks just fine on her. Then she said she needs bikini wax for the stray hairs. Lastly she said that she needs us to pay for this all since it is all so expensive. Before I could comment my wife agreed.
How did it get decided that body hair on women is so unattractive? And why does a bikini with such a miniscule amount of material cost so much? More to the point how did women allow themselves to get brainwashed into paying for all this? And how has it become so important that my wife sees it as reasonable as buying tampons for our daughter. After all she has a job.....Days like today I am so glad I am a man, albeit a man with a hobby.
Absaroka
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CJ
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Hi all,
Absaroka,
I'm not sure what annoys you more...that men have brainwashed women into believing women have to look a certain way... or that men have to pay for that look.
Personally, I think your daughter is old enough for Victoria's Secret, old enough for a bikini line wax job, and certainly old enough to pay for it all--especially if she has a job.
Love,
CJ
Absaroka,
I'm not sure what annoys you more...that men have brainwashed women into believing women have to look a certain way... or that men have to pay for that look.
Personally, I think your daughter is old enough for Victoria's Secret, old enough for a bikini line wax job, and certainly old enough to pay for it all--especially if she has a job.
Love,
CJ
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Amanda Barber
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SilverLady(SO)
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Absaroka -
I agree with CJ, at age 17 your daughter is old enough to shop at VS and to work, so she is also old enough to start buying these "little extras" like the bikini line wax job . . . and that VS bikini, too.
Don't tell her she can't have them (at her age, they're not out of line, IMHO), but you do let her know that her parents will not be paying for them.
If she wants both items that badly, then she can buy them with her own hard-earned money.
It's time she started to learn good fiscal management while she's still under your parental control.
- SL
PS: As to the other points you mention, I presume she is the oldest of your children? Guess what, hon? There's no brainwashing going on, but you are sounding like a typical father who is realizing that his 'little girl' is growing up and almost an adult!
I agree with CJ, at age 17 your daughter is old enough to shop at VS and to work, so she is also old enough to start buying these "little extras" like the bikini line wax job . . . and that VS bikini, too.
Don't tell her she can't have them (at her age, they're not out of line, IMHO), but you do let her know that her parents will not be paying for them.
If she wants both items that badly, then she can buy them with her own hard-earned money.It's time she started to learn good fiscal management while she's still under your parental control.
- SL
PS: As to the other points you mention, I presume she is the oldest of your children? Guess what, hon? There's no brainwashing going on, but you are sounding like a typical father who is realizing that his 'little girl' is growing up and almost an adult!
SilverLady(SO)
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Elizabeth
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Absoroka,
It's easy to have expensive taste when someone else is paying. You notice she is not willing to spend her money on it, because it's not worth it to her. She would rather spend her money in other ways.
My daughter did much the same. She had to have name brand everything. Now that she is on her own, Walmart and the Thrift store are just fine. When it's her money.
I understand that she needs a new bikini because last years is, well, last years. But if she wants top of the line, she needs to pay for it, otherwise Walmart sells nice bikini's too.
Love always,
Elizabeth
It's easy to have expensive taste when someone else is paying. You notice she is not willing to spend her money on it, because it's not worth it to her. She would rather spend her money in other ways.
My daughter did much the same. She had to have name brand everything. Now that she is on her own, Walmart and the Thrift store are just fine. When it's her money.
I understand that she needs a new bikini because last years is, well, last years. But if she wants top of the line, she needs to pay for it, otherwise Walmart sells nice bikini's too.
Love always,
Elizabeth
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Gaven McLaren
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My mother would have told me if I asked for something as expensive a VS swimsuit (I would not have asked her for that). She would have told me to get a job. So I agree with the idea of her paying for her own swimsuit and bikini waxing. I love some of the Bikini's at Walmart and bought at least one of them this year.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons. As you are crunchy and good with chocolate!
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Virginia
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Ain't fatherhood great!? 
There is definitely a "different bond" between a father and daughter than between a mother and daughter.
You know the old adage: "A son is a son until he takes a wife, but a daughter is a daughter all her life."
I have seen this from both sides. My ex-wife was the epitome of that! My best description of her relationship with her mother was simply that when she was born, they never cut the cord!! When she LEFT ME! - after 28 years - where did she go and where is she now? - living with her 87 and 86 year old parents!!!!! Then again, how many of us WITH DAUGHTERS would not fling open our doors to our daughters at anytime in our lives!?
My daughter and I are not "bonding" right now for reasons that are of no consequence here, but were she to be in trouble, Dad would be there for her in a heart beat!
It is my considered opinion that the best we can do for our children is to basically teach them right from wrong (politics aside), and toss them out into the world and hope that they can put two and two together and get four!
Love you all,
Virginia
PS: I also agree with previous comments - she has a job = responsibility, she should pay for as much if not all of her wants and wishes!
There is definitely a "different bond" between a father and daughter than between a mother and daughter.
You know the old adage: "A son is a son until he takes a wife, but a daughter is a daughter all her life."
I have seen this from both sides. My ex-wife was the epitome of that! My best description of her relationship with her mother was simply that when she was born, they never cut the cord!! When she LEFT ME! - after 28 years - where did she go and where is she now? - living with her 87 and 86 year old parents!!!!! Then again, how many of us WITH DAUGHTERS would not fling open our doors to our daughters at anytime in our lives!?
My daughter and I are not "bonding" right now for reasons that are of no consequence here, but were she to be in trouble, Dad would be there for her in a heart beat!
It is my considered opinion that the best we can do for our children is to basically teach them right from wrong (politics aside), and toss them out into the world and hope that they can put two and two together and get four!
Love you all,
Virginia
PS: I also agree with previous comments - she has a job = responsibility, she should pay for as much if not all of her wants and wishes!
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Arianne
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Oh the joys of daughters. I just had my two move out, they wanted to be independent. Every weekend they are here doing their laundry, my dear wife is constantly the referee, as they got an apartment together.
We told them a few years back, when they started wanting everything their friends had, that we would provide for their needs, they could provide for their wants. They both got jobs and were spending up largely. Now they have an apartment, they are realising how much Mom and Dad did for them.
I say let her have the VS bikini and wax job, once she earns the money
We told them a few years back, when they started wanting everything their friends had, that we would provide for their needs, they could provide for their wants. They both got jobs and were spending up largely. Now they have an apartment, they are realising how much Mom and Dad did for them.
I say let her have the VS bikini and wax job, once she earns the money
Why can't they just let me be me?
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Maria
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Since the daughter is almost 18, she should take the responsibility and pay for her own personal needs. Teaching fiscal responsibility to kids before they move out is important. Being able to earn and spend their own money wisely is an important step thoughout adulthood. I use my credit cards wisely and pay off the full balance every month. I have never paid any interest on my credit cards!
I perfer Mervyn's, Target, and Wal-Mart for items that I need. Last summer at Mervyn's, I purchased my first bikini at 50% off the regular price! I waited several months before the big sale; I was happy to find a bikini I wanted at a fantastic price!
Maria
I perfer Mervyn's, Target, and Wal-Mart for items that I need. Last summer at Mervyn's, I purchased my first bikini at 50% off the regular price! I waited several months before the big sale; I was happy to find a bikini I wanted at a fantastic price!
Maria
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Tekla
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If she has a job she should pay for some or all of it, depending on how much she makes of course.
As to how it became a cultural norm in the US:
U.S. women were browbeaten into shaving underarm hair by a sustained marketing assault that began in 1915. (Leg hair came later.)
The aim of what Hope calls the Great Underarm Campaign was to inform American womanhood of a problem that till then it didn't know it had, namely unsightly underarm hair.
To be sure, women had been concerned about the appearance of their hair since time immemorial, but (sensibly) only the stuff you could see. Prior to World War I this meant scalp and, for an unlucky few, facial hair.
Around 1915, however, sleeveless dresses became popular, opening up a whole new field of female vulnerability for marketers to exploit.
According to Hope, the underarm campaign began in May, 1915, in Harper's Bazaar, a magazine aimed at the upper crust. The first ad "featured a waist-up photograph of a young woman who appears to be dressed in a slip with a toga-like outfit covering one shoulder. Her arms are arched over her head revealing perfectly clear armpits. The first part of the ad read `Summer Dress and Modern Dancing combine to make necessary the removal of objectionable hair.'"
Within three months, Cook tells us, the once-shocking term "underarm" was being used. A few ads mentioned hygiene as a motive for getting rid of hair but most appealed strictly to the ancient yearning to be hip. "The Woman of Fashion says the underarm must be as smooth as the face," read a typical pitch.
The budding obsession with underarm hair drifted down to the proles fairly slowly, roughly matching the widening popularity of sheer and sleeveless dresses. Antiarm hair ads began appearing in middlebrow McCall's in 1917. Women's razors and depilatories didn't show up in the Sears Roebuck catalog until 1922, the same year the company began offering dresses with sheer sleeves.
So, like so many things in American society, it was a marketing deal.
As to how it became a cultural norm in the US:
U.S. women were browbeaten into shaving underarm hair by a sustained marketing assault that began in 1915. (Leg hair came later.)
The aim of what Hope calls the Great Underarm Campaign was to inform American womanhood of a problem that till then it didn't know it had, namely unsightly underarm hair.
To be sure, women had been concerned about the appearance of their hair since time immemorial, but (sensibly) only the stuff you could see. Prior to World War I this meant scalp and, for an unlucky few, facial hair.
Around 1915, however, sleeveless dresses became popular, opening up a whole new field of female vulnerability for marketers to exploit.
According to Hope, the underarm campaign began in May, 1915, in Harper's Bazaar, a magazine aimed at the upper crust. The first ad "featured a waist-up photograph of a young woman who appears to be dressed in a slip with a toga-like outfit covering one shoulder. Her arms are arched over her head revealing perfectly clear armpits. The first part of the ad read `Summer Dress and Modern Dancing combine to make necessary the removal of objectionable hair.'"
Within three months, Cook tells us, the once-shocking term "underarm" was being used. A few ads mentioned hygiene as a motive for getting rid of hair but most appealed strictly to the ancient yearning to be hip. "The Woman of Fashion says the underarm must be as smooth as the face," read a typical pitch.
The budding obsession with underarm hair drifted down to the proles fairly slowly, roughly matching the widening popularity of sheer and sleeveless dresses. Antiarm hair ads began appearing in middlebrow McCall's in 1917. Women's razors and depilatories didn't show up in the Sears Roebuck catalog until 1922, the same year the company began offering dresses with sheer sleeves.
So, like so many things in American society, it was a marketing deal.
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Absaroka
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First I have to give my daughter her propers. She did get a VS swimsuit that was on sale for $20 and found it before she asked us to pay for it. Secondly, even with us paying for her clothing she does a lot of shopping at Goodwill and the like.
I'm in total agreement about her paying for the bikini wax but since my wife is dealing with a lot of very stressful stuff right now I'm not going to precipatate a mommy said daddy said fight. Maybe next time. There will be plenty of other things we can tell her to buy herself.
Tekla I think you got to the point I was trying to make. I don't think it is just a male perception of beauty thing although that is a factor. Teenage girls dress for the other girls just as teenage boys act macho for other teenage boys. And so much of this I think is really a marketing thing. Shaving of underarms and legs is a wonderful example of creating a need where none existed and in the process inflicting a lot of psychic damage. I sometimes think the biggest whores in the country are in the advertising industry.
Absaroka
I'm in total agreement about her paying for the bikini wax but since my wife is dealing with a lot of very stressful stuff right now I'm not going to precipatate a mommy said daddy said fight. Maybe next time. There will be plenty of other things we can tell her to buy herself.
Tekla I think you got to the point I was trying to make. I don't think it is just a male perception of beauty thing although that is a factor. Teenage girls dress for the other girls just as teenage boys act macho for other teenage boys. And so much of this I think is really a marketing thing. Shaving of underarms and legs is a wonderful example of creating a need where none existed and in the process inflicting a lot of psychic damage. I sometimes think the biggest whores in the country are in the advertising industry.
Absaroka
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
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ShamrockFaerie(SO)
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HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
OMG I'm sorry.... I needed a laugh today more than anything else, and this thread (from MY POV at least) is HILARIOUS! I think it's so funny because it's alot of Dads talking about their daughters.....
OK, let me elaborate a bit......
First - I am a woman, so I can speak (at least somewhat intelligently) about the inherent need for teenage girls to dress and groom themselves in a certain way..... It's for THEMSELVES. Period. Not for anyone else. Adolescent females are notoriously insecure about their appearances, and this is a result of hormones as much as any marketing or societal influences. Shaving underarms, legs, and bikini line are part of growing up for a girl. It's a "rite of passage" so to speak (like shaving a beard for a man). As many pp mentioned, it's also a product of marketing for the last century, but it's not in any way shape or form something that women conciously say "Well, I just saw that VEET commercial.... I think I'll remove all of my body hair". It's more about doing what makes you FEEL good and feel like you LOOK good.
An example the CDs on this forum might understand is this..... When you dress up, it's because it makes you FEEL good, not because someone is marketing garters and high heels to you (they most certainly DON'T market those things to men). But you FEEL whole and complete and happy and relaxed when you wear those items. It's the same for the women in your life. It has nothing to do with what is being marketed to them and EVERYTHING to do with their feelings and self esteem.
Abrasoka - As the mom of a 9 month old little girl, I am already dreading the teen years. I'm dreading that boy she's going to bring home who is a total loser, I'm dreading the "I know everything and you are an idiot" attitude that invariably comes with adolescence, I'm dreading the first time she asks me about birth control, and more than anything I'm dreading the moment she wants to leave the house looking like a cheap Brittany Spears or Paris Hilton knockoff and I have to be the b*tch from hell that tells her no. But it's all part of being a parent, and I know I'll have to deal with it someday. Your daughter is 17. Shopping at VS is fine for her, and perhaps you and your wife can indulge her a little by getting her nice things from there for birthdays and holidays. Every girl (no matter how old) needs and deserves a little pampering now and then. At this point, you probably ought to be glad that she still WANTS to be pampered by you and not the aforementioned loser boyfriend. So try to keep it in perspective.
That said.... I'd never DREAM of asking my dad to pay for a bikini wax. TOO EMBARRASSING!
My GOD! Seriously.... Dad's don't need to know THAT much. But I'd likely go to my mom and tell her what I needed. Her reaction would likely be to buy me some products (or shop with me and help me select products that I could afford) to use at home and teach me how to use them.... Cheaper and much more discreet, and it also would teach her to groom herself rather than paying others to do it for her. I like having sculpted eyebrows, but I do them myself, for example. I have gray hair, but I don't spend $60 a month getting my hair professionally colored to cover it up.... I buy the $15 hair color at the grocery store and do it myself. The key is teaching your kids how to make responsible choices. But to do that, they have to KNOW what the choices are, and it looks like your daughter doesn't have all her options lined up. Perhaps a better way to address the issue would be to suggest to your wife that she set aside a "beauty day" to spend with your daughter, where she can show her more economical ways of getting results.... This can apply not just to the bikini line issue, but also to general grooming. That will teach your daughter how to manage the money she has and still get the results that she wants. And it'll also be fun for both mom and daughter and provide a GREAT opportunity for bonding (something that tends to fall by the wayside for moms and daughters once they hit a "certain" age). You also mentioned that your wife is dealing with some stress, so she could look at it as a "vacation" of sorts.... A day of pampering to focus on beauty and health.
As for the money thing.... Yes, your daughter NEEDS to learn to prioritize her finances, but it sounds (after more info was given) like she was pretty responsible about choosing something that was not TOO pricey (a $20 swimsuit from VS is a BARGAIN). I would suggest telling her that you'll meet her halfway on the bathing suit.... You pay half but make her pay half, and ask her to pay for the beauty products she uses. A bikini wax is a fairly personal thing, anyway.... She should have to deal with that however she can, either by working and saving for the wax or doing a "beauty" day with your wife.... I say asking you to pay for that is unreasonable. But don't punish her for bargain shopping..... If she found a bargain but can't *quite* afford it, then helping her out isn't the end of the world. You can use the opportunity to teach her that as long as she is TRYING, you will help, but if she's being unreasonable, she's on her own.
Just my opinion..... Dads are funny about their daughters. I think alot of you guys need to lighten up a bit and try to see your daughter's needs in the same light you see your own. It's hard, though, because you want to protect them and everything.... You want there to be a concrete reason why they are the way they are and why they want the things they do. But there simply isn't one guys. It's not about marketing or societal influence. It's just about what SHE wants and how SHE feels, just like your CDing is for you.
-Tiffany
OMG I'm sorry.... I needed a laugh today more than anything else, and this thread (from MY POV at least) is HILARIOUS! I think it's so funny because it's alot of Dads talking about their daughters.....
OK, let me elaborate a bit......
First - I am a woman, so I can speak (at least somewhat intelligently) about the inherent need for teenage girls to dress and groom themselves in a certain way..... It's for THEMSELVES. Period. Not for anyone else. Adolescent females are notoriously insecure about their appearances, and this is a result of hormones as much as any marketing or societal influences. Shaving underarms, legs, and bikini line are part of growing up for a girl. It's a "rite of passage" so to speak (like shaving a beard for a man). As many pp mentioned, it's also a product of marketing for the last century, but it's not in any way shape or form something that women conciously say "Well, I just saw that VEET commercial.... I think I'll remove all of my body hair". It's more about doing what makes you FEEL good and feel like you LOOK good.
An example the CDs on this forum might understand is this..... When you dress up, it's because it makes you FEEL good, not because someone is marketing garters and high heels to you (they most certainly DON'T market those things to men). But you FEEL whole and complete and happy and relaxed when you wear those items. It's the same for the women in your life. It has nothing to do with what is being marketed to them and EVERYTHING to do with their feelings and self esteem.
Abrasoka - As the mom of a 9 month old little girl, I am already dreading the teen years. I'm dreading that boy she's going to bring home who is a total loser, I'm dreading the "I know everything and you are an idiot" attitude that invariably comes with adolescence, I'm dreading the first time she asks me about birth control, and more than anything I'm dreading the moment she wants to leave the house looking like a cheap Brittany Spears or Paris Hilton knockoff and I have to be the b*tch from hell that tells her no. But it's all part of being a parent, and I know I'll have to deal with it someday. Your daughter is 17. Shopping at VS is fine for her, and perhaps you and your wife can indulge her a little by getting her nice things from there for birthdays and holidays. Every girl (no matter how old) needs and deserves a little pampering now and then. At this point, you probably ought to be glad that she still WANTS to be pampered by you and not the aforementioned loser boyfriend. So try to keep it in perspective.
That said.... I'd never DREAM of asking my dad to pay for a bikini wax. TOO EMBARRASSING!
My GOD! Seriously.... Dad's don't need to know THAT much. But I'd likely go to my mom and tell her what I needed. Her reaction would likely be to buy me some products (or shop with me and help me select products that I could afford) to use at home and teach me how to use them.... Cheaper and much more discreet, and it also would teach her to groom herself rather than paying others to do it for her. I like having sculpted eyebrows, but I do them myself, for example. I have gray hair, but I don't spend $60 a month getting my hair professionally colored to cover it up.... I buy the $15 hair color at the grocery store and do it myself. The key is teaching your kids how to make responsible choices. But to do that, they have to KNOW what the choices are, and it looks like your daughter doesn't have all her options lined up. Perhaps a better way to address the issue would be to suggest to your wife that she set aside a "beauty day" to spend with your daughter, where she can show her more economical ways of getting results.... This can apply not just to the bikini line issue, but also to general grooming. That will teach your daughter how to manage the money she has and still get the results that she wants. And it'll also be fun for both mom and daughter and provide a GREAT opportunity for bonding (something that tends to fall by the wayside for moms and daughters once they hit a "certain" age). You also mentioned that your wife is dealing with some stress, so she could look at it as a "vacation" of sorts.... A day of pampering to focus on beauty and health.As for the money thing.... Yes, your daughter NEEDS to learn to prioritize her finances, but it sounds (after more info was given) like she was pretty responsible about choosing something that was not TOO pricey (a $20 swimsuit from VS is a BARGAIN). I would suggest telling her that you'll meet her halfway on the bathing suit.... You pay half but make her pay half, and ask her to pay for the beauty products she uses. A bikini wax is a fairly personal thing, anyway.... She should have to deal with that however she can, either by working and saving for the wax or doing a "beauty" day with your wife.... I say asking you to pay for that is unreasonable. But don't punish her for bargain shopping..... If she found a bargain but can't *quite* afford it, then helping her out isn't the end of the world. You can use the opportunity to teach her that as long as she is TRYING, you will help, but if she's being unreasonable, she's on her own.
Just my opinion..... Dads are funny about their daughters. I think alot of you guys need to lighten up a bit and try to see your daughter's needs in the same light you see your own. It's hard, though, because you want to protect them and everything.... You want there to be a concrete reason why they are the way they are and why they want the things they do. But there simply isn't one guys. It's not about marketing or societal influence. It's just about what SHE wants and how SHE feels, just like your CDing is for you.
-Tiffany
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Tekla
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Most respectively, but I think you are dead wrong. Most of my life has been spent on college campuses and the rest in nightclubs. Girls do not dress up for themselves. As Van Morrison put it in "Wild Night Is Falling:"
The girls walk by, dressed up for each other.
He was spot on. Girls dress to be accepted by the peers they want to be accepted by, and rejected by those they don't want to be a part of. A Double Edged sword. After all, where does that insecurity come from, internally? Nah. Its external all the way. Peer pressure is the short version of it. Marketing is the root source of it.
Shaving underarms, legs, and bikini line are part of growing up for a girl. It's a "rite of passage" so to speak >> if so, it would be eternal and across cultures, and its not. Is very American (go to a beach in France and see) and as such, is a social/cultural norm that they are expected to obey. Unless they want to be outside the culture - in which case NOT doing is is also expected. Sorry, you are wrong on that one.
Women live in a universe of fashion, and would not wear a pair a kaki shorts and that real cute pink and white striped top to a goth/industrial show, nor would they wear the full out rocker outfit to see Brooks&Dun, nor go to a wedding in anything less than formal wear - unless they were out to offend everyone there.
Most guys have a male wardrobe that offers a choice between Dip, Dork, Clod and "I'm here to fire you."
Every girl (no matter how old) needs and deserves a little pampering now and then. >> In what little knowledge I have, every girl need a lot of pampering, not now and again, but on a consistent and regular basis. So I see it. And there is a word for guys who don't get this - single.
Good women (or girls) make good choices. If they pick a loser, its one of two things. One, you don't really know the guy. So his hair is weird, his clothing is whatever (and please, please post some pix of you at 16, see what I mean?) that does not mean he is a bad person, or dumb. After all, look at a pix of Bill Gates at 19. What a dweeb. On the other hand, you would be the richest in-laws in the world. Two, they are trying to get back at you. God hope its always the first, and never the second.
$20 for a female swimsuit at K-Mart is a bargain, at VS its almost like stealing it. We agree on that one. As for why they cost that much. Because they can charge that much and still sell them, that's why.
It has nothing to do with what is being marketed to them and EVERYTHING to do with their feelings and self esteem. >>> Again, I have to disagree, most (MOST) of this is exactly (PRECISELY) about marketing. We are sold what we believe in. What makes us look good, what is expected, and all the rest. We live in a market driven, consumer orientated consumer society that collapses into the dust bin of history the day we all decide that none of that stuff matters. The most dangerous people to America as we understand it are not Islam based terrorists, its those people who blew up their TV, don't pay attention to any of that, and have renounced the consumer lifestyle.
If you want to destroy America, you don't need to fly planes into big buildings, that will not work - as has been demonstrated. Nah, just convince everyone that instead of a 'store bought present' for Christmas, do something personal for them. If there were no shopping from T-giving to Xmas day, 80% of the business in this nation would be gone by Feb 1. Bet on it.
Given that, I set limits for my kids. I said "I think a decent pair of shoes cost $70, so here is the cash." If they wanted more than that, they had to find the money. Good for my punk kid who loved (a chip off the old block he is) Converse so he could buy 2 pair and still go out and have lunch on me. Not so good for the one who wanted Air Jordan's. However, when that kid got a job doing construction, you bet your roots toots that I (happily) spent $120+ to buy him a good set of construction boots.
Lastly, not that I'm some great defender of Paris Hilton, she has PR people for that, but there is no way you can put her and Brit Spears in the same sentence except to say they party together. Poor BS is poor white trash from Louisiana, and acts every bit the part. PH is American aristroracy, and its shows. PH had a better education by the time she was 7 than BS has received to this day. You don't see PH spreading her legs getting out of a limo, she was taught how to do that from day one. Just watch the two of them walk and you know it. And I got to give props to PH, who went back (when no one else in LA gets that much time for that) and did the time, walked out with her head high, in total control. You got to dig on that. BS would have walked out with prison tats and gang colors.
I would be shocked if a true and accurate accounting had BS even having as little as 15% of the money she has ever made. I bet PH has every penny, with compounding interest.
And "17" is not out on their own. Nor should it be. Hell, I'm happy that I have one that just graduated from collage (talk about feeling old, I only did that yesterday, I swear). And that leaves one to go. I will fulfill that commitment because I know that without that degree (and it does not matter much what its in, only that you have it) you got a life full of "Hey, do you want fries with that" ahead of you - and I want better for my kids. It's my responsibility as a parent to do exactly that. And when you think you are spending too much on a bathing suit, check out how much that degree will set you back. The bathing suit looks like a bargain.
The girls walk by, dressed up for each other.
He was spot on. Girls dress to be accepted by the peers they want to be accepted by, and rejected by those they don't want to be a part of. A Double Edged sword. After all, where does that insecurity come from, internally? Nah. Its external all the way. Peer pressure is the short version of it. Marketing is the root source of it.
Shaving underarms, legs, and bikini line are part of growing up for a girl. It's a "rite of passage" so to speak >> if so, it would be eternal and across cultures, and its not. Is very American (go to a beach in France and see) and as such, is a social/cultural norm that they are expected to obey. Unless they want to be outside the culture - in which case NOT doing is is also expected. Sorry, you are wrong on that one.
Women live in a universe of fashion, and would not wear a pair a kaki shorts and that real cute pink and white striped top to a goth/industrial show, nor would they wear the full out rocker outfit to see Brooks&Dun, nor go to a wedding in anything less than formal wear - unless they were out to offend everyone there.
Most guys have a male wardrobe that offers a choice between Dip, Dork, Clod and "I'm here to fire you."
Every girl (no matter how old) needs and deserves a little pampering now and then. >> In what little knowledge I have, every girl need a lot of pampering, not now and again, but on a consistent and regular basis. So I see it. And there is a word for guys who don't get this - single.
Good women (or girls) make good choices. If they pick a loser, its one of two things. One, you don't really know the guy. So his hair is weird, his clothing is whatever (and please, please post some pix of you at 16, see what I mean?) that does not mean he is a bad person, or dumb. After all, look at a pix of Bill Gates at 19. What a dweeb. On the other hand, you would be the richest in-laws in the world. Two, they are trying to get back at you. God hope its always the first, and never the second.
$20 for a female swimsuit at K-Mart is a bargain, at VS its almost like stealing it. We agree on that one. As for why they cost that much. Because they can charge that much and still sell them, that's why.
It has nothing to do with what is being marketed to them and EVERYTHING to do with their feelings and self esteem. >>> Again, I have to disagree, most (MOST) of this is exactly (PRECISELY) about marketing. We are sold what we believe in. What makes us look good, what is expected, and all the rest. We live in a market driven, consumer orientated consumer society that collapses into the dust bin of history the day we all decide that none of that stuff matters. The most dangerous people to America as we understand it are not Islam based terrorists, its those people who blew up their TV, don't pay attention to any of that, and have renounced the consumer lifestyle.
If you want to destroy America, you don't need to fly planes into big buildings, that will not work - as has been demonstrated. Nah, just convince everyone that instead of a 'store bought present' for Christmas, do something personal for them. If there were no shopping from T-giving to Xmas day, 80% of the business in this nation would be gone by Feb 1. Bet on it.
Given that, I set limits for my kids. I said "I think a decent pair of shoes cost $70, so here is the cash." If they wanted more than that, they had to find the money. Good for my punk kid who loved (a chip off the old block he is) Converse so he could buy 2 pair and still go out and have lunch on me. Not so good for the one who wanted Air Jordan's. However, when that kid got a job doing construction, you bet your roots toots that I (happily) spent $120+ to buy him a good set of construction boots.
Lastly, not that I'm some great defender of Paris Hilton, she has PR people for that, but there is no way you can put her and Brit Spears in the same sentence except to say they party together. Poor BS is poor white trash from Louisiana, and acts every bit the part. PH is American aristroracy, and its shows. PH had a better education by the time she was 7 than BS has received to this day. You don't see PH spreading her legs getting out of a limo, she was taught how to do that from day one. Just watch the two of them walk and you know it. And I got to give props to PH, who went back (when no one else in LA gets that much time for that) and did the time, walked out with her head high, in total control. You got to dig on that. BS would have walked out with prison tats and gang colors.
I would be shocked if a true and accurate accounting had BS even having as little as 15% of the money she has ever made. I bet PH has every penny, with compounding interest.
And "17" is not out on their own. Nor should it be. Hell, I'm happy that I have one that just graduated from collage (talk about feeling old, I only did that yesterday, I swear). And that leaves one to go. I will fulfill that commitment because I know that without that degree (and it does not matter much what its in, only that you have it) you got a life full of "Hey, do you want fries with that" ahead of you - and I want better for my kids. It's my responsibility as a parent to do exactly that. And when you think you are spending too much on a bathing suit, check out how much that degree will set you back. The bathing suit looks like a bargain.
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Absaroka
- Miss Diamond Goddess
- Posts: 3344
- Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:30 am
Well it was just the two of us for dinner tonight so I figured I'd go to the horses mouth and I asked her who she dresses for. We quite a pleasant conversation about it and she said she tries to impress the boys. Not her boyfriend, who is madly in love with her anyway, or her other male friends, but the general male population. I asked was she sure it wasn't for the other girls and she said no, you've seen how we dress when it's just us having a sleep over. Point taken. Then she said that it's mostly for herself, that she would feel uncomfortable going to school with dirty hair and clothes that don't match and so on. I asked "why" and she seemed to think that was an odd question. From there we discussed clothing and she made the comment that with boys the less you wear the more free you are (think gym shorts vs a suit and tie) in terms of movement, but that with girls it's the other way, that she can move more freely in a long casual skirt and a sweat shirt than in tight pants or short shorts and a skimpy teeshirt. Guys don't have to worry about stuff falling out.....
Most of the time she is a bright and articulate pleasant young woman. Then there are the other times.........
Tiffany she did not ask me for the bikini wax. She asked her mom, who is now out of town for a couple of weeks dealing with stuff with her family. Her mom told me.
We have been fortunate in that we really like the current boyfriend. They have been going out for a couple of years now. I was especially touched that she chose to tell me that their relationship had become sexual. After all the questions-do you use protection? ever done something you didn't want to do? I asked her does it make you happy, and do you feel it enhances the relationship, is it an expression of love? And we had a very good talk about it. Then I told her she needed to tell her mom and that I would give her a day to do so. Which she did.
The next time I spoke with her boyfriend I pulled of the act of all time, acting as if nothing had changed while I thought "YOU.........................." My wife and I both got a big laugh out of that. But we do like him and I am basically happy for her that she has what I consider a good relationship. So I guess my thought is don't dread this too much.
I still blame marketing for the whole body hair thing..........
Absaroka
Most of the time she is a bright and articulate pleasant young woman. Then there are the other times.........
Tiffany she did not ask me for the bikini wax. She asked her mom, who is now out of town for a couple of weeks dealing with stuff with her family. Her mom told me.
We have been fortunate in that we really like the current boyfriend. They have been going out for a couple of years now. I was especially touched that she chose to tell me that their relationship had become sexual. After all the questions-do you use protection? ever done something you didn't want to do? I asked her does it make you happy, and do you feel it enhances the relationship, is it an expression of love? And we had a very good talk about it. Then I told her she needed to tell her mom and that I would give her a day to do so. Which she did.
The next time I spoke with her boyfriend I pulled of the act of all time, acting as if nothing had changed while I thought "YOU.........................." My wife and I both got a big laugh out of that. But we do like him and I am basically happy for her that she has what I consider a good relationship. So I guess my thought is don't dread this too much.
I still blame marketing for the whole body hair thing..........
Absaroka
everything under the sun is in tune
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon
but the sun is eclipsed by the moon