Am I wrong!?

Virginia · Post by **Virginia** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:26 pm

One of the members of "Equity Virginia" a political action group, here in the Commonwealth of Virginia posted that she was very upset with a local DMV, that they would not take her picture and change her "marker" on her driver's license.

Here is the story as I understand it. She did have her name changed, legally, but beyond that has not done anything else. She does not see a psychologist, or have a Dr. to supply her hormones or schedule her SRS, yet she wants the DMV to take her picture and change her "marker" based solely on her name change and the explanation that she plans to have the other "stuff" done in the near future.

Well, I pointed out that since the Commonwealth of Virginia was the primary supplier of driver licenses to the "9-11" zealots that the Commonwealth is probably a bit more paranoid than a lot of other states, that I have to side with them in this matter. Presentation and a name change, in my opinion just do not justify issuing one, if not the most, important form of identification that most of us carry. It is my understanding that a name change can be done by anyone for virtually any reason and it can not or is not questioned, unless it is so extreme as to be ludicrous. However, linking that sole document to a DL just does not seem feasible to me. I think that the DMV would happily change the name to anything that the legal name change document would state - only make sense, but to change the "marker" and picture that is another matter entirely.

What do you all think??

Virginia

Kimberly Kael · Post by **Kimberly Kael** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:03 pm

It's an interesting question, and as usual it exposes just how conflated the concepts of gender and sex are in our culture. Which one is your drivers' license supposed to indicate? If the answer is sex, I'd agree with you and the state. If the answer is gender, I'd agree with the driver in question but I suspect that's not the case.

I'd suggest that gender is a matter of presentation and can be changed without much of a legal process, and can be reflected by name and photograph alone. Changing one's sex is a more involved process and I'm fine with there being a legal requirement enforced on identification.

Perhaps its time to start pushing for broad acceptance of a three-part identity: sex, gender, and orientation? (eg: MFF - Male that identifies as female, preference for female partners.) Orientation would be irrelevant for identification purposes, of course, so you just use MM/FF/MF/FM. I'm sure some people would be tempted to stick single letter abbreviations M and F for MM and FF. Of course we'd need indicators for no preference, etc. in the full three-part designation.

Virginia · Post by **Virginia** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:00 pm

Thanks Kimberly,

That thought did enter my mind and here is the premise that I initially came up with. The driver's license could have imbossed on it TG or TS --whatever. That would require some type of legal support document, ie, a letter from a qualified psychologist that says that they have counselled this individual and that yes they are TS or TG. Then the license could be issued with M for sex (or F if the alternative were the case) and the picture could be whichever the person wanted, M or F. Then if the DL is used for, oh say a speeding ticket and the person is "dressed" the cop sees TS/TG and knows that is the situation. For ID purposes to use a credit card or cash a check, of course the names would have to match as would the car insurance and the DL. So if Joe Bob is stopped while going to or from a CD meeting or whatever and is dressed, the cop sees the license and registration as Joe Bob and the emblazened TG/TS on the license he knows this person has met the state requirements for that and other than paying the fine, Joe Bob is on his/her merry way!!!

I guess there is a down side to this, but for the moment it escapes me other than perhaps the individual states having to retool there DL manufacturing equipment to add TG/TS to the ID?!

Love,

Virginia

Gaven McLaren · Post by **Gaven McLaren** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:12 am

To change the DL layout to add TG/TS section is not really all that hard. They are a computer controlled document any way. So they would have to make the font smaller or rearrange where things fall on the DL. The issue is getting the states to change the layout for something like that. That would take some major political backing such as a pflag or some other such group.

Jan W · Post by **Jan W** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:43 am

Virginia,

You are not wrong.

I am tired of people making all kinds of TG noises and not backing them up with action.

If the said member is fair dinkum, then let her act on her beliefs then apply for her genuine change of identification.

I for one have met too many pretendy types to fall for the "I'll do it next week" line - thank you.

Jan.

Anita · Post by **Anita** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:04 am

I'd have to go with you on this one, Virginia. I think she needs a letter from a counselor, at the very least. When you're talking about "official" documents, then you need to involve professionals if you're going to try to change those documents.

Post by **DonnaT** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:43 pm

This state is a little bass ackwards, too.

For example, if you have a letter stating you intend to transition in 18 months or less, then DMV will change your marker.

However, if you have GRS before going to DMV, you have to get your birth certificate changed before they'll change your gender market.

S. Lisa Smith · Post by **S. Lisa Smith** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:55 am

My take on this is that the Circuit Court that issued the change of name order is the primary gatekeeper as to preventing fraud, etc. I think that DMV is legally obligated to issue a new DL with that name once she has the order. If she is 24/7, she can go get the picture taken. The sex marker is a different story. As I recall, and it's been a while since I researched this for a TS client, a letter from a Doctor or treating psychologist is necessicary.

Virginia · Post by **Virginia** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:10 pm

See this is where I get confused, but then again with Bucky's tongue in my ear I am easily confused (sorry that's an inside joke!) Anyway, if I have a "court order" verifying my name change, I should be able to get that name on my license? But that name would have to conform to other documents, i.e., insurance, registration, title, etc. The picture requires proof of 24/7??? I would think that with a TG/TS marker, the M/F marker could remain the birth gender and no one would fuss about it. As for the picture, since there is no transistion (SRS) taking place what difference would it make to "us" to keep the male picture. The marker change from M to F I would think and agree would certainly have to have letters of support from both a Dr. and treating psychologist! The 18 months is what I understand to be the accepted procedure in the Commonwealth.

That is why I think that adding just a TS/TG marker would uncomplicate things quite a bit. It would still require a letter from a psychologist and would "save" a crossdresser a bit of potential embarrassment and would not require a 24/7 presentation.

Just some thoughts and something that I am going to pursue throught the Equity Virginia organization until I get stone-walled!

Love,

Virginia

Virginia · Post by **Virginia** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:02 am

I have just started pursuing the idea of a TS/TG marker on a dirver's license.

I am curious if any of my sisters out there would have such a marker attached to their license in their state if it were available???

I have proposed that "we" would have to jump through some hoops to get it, mainly that being obtaining a letter from a "qualified" mental health specialist, psy, or phy, or "certified" counselor that they had determined that "this person is TS/TG."

I know I am missing something, but it would not require a change of name or picture or gender marker on the license, it would give law enforcement some indication that if they stopped "us" at say a soberity checkpoint or for a moving violation and we were "properly dressed" they would have less reason to "hassel" us.

I noted a recent discussion with the District of Columbia police department about their interaction with the "trans-community" which they are quite liberal. They have a concern of bobby pins holding on wigs being used as weapons and smuggling drugs in "ladies" undergarments.
What can I say???

Anyway, your comments and opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Would you entertain the idea of pursuing have a TG/TS marker on your DL if were available in your state!>

Virginia

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:54 am

Hi girls,

I am going to have to be the odd girl out here. My current license has my picture how I look now and I have the paper from my doctor to change my gender. Because this is usually done with the name change, I have not decided if I want to separate the two and perhaps not change my name, as it's a bi-gender name anyway.

I have never been to counseling for my gender explicitly. I have never been to a gender therapist, nor have I ever been formally diagnosed with gender dysphoria. When I asked my doctor to sign the form saying I was in transition, he had no problem at all. The paper had two choices, one that said I was "in transition" and the other that said "transition complete". He checked the "transition complete" box.

I asked him about this knowing that he knows I have not had surgery and that this form is a "under oath" document and he could be asked for records to support what he said and he replied "are you ever going back to living as a man?" To which I replied "no". He said "well I have seen you transition and I am convinced you are a woman. The form only asks for my opinion about what you are."

So here I am. I live full time as a woman. I am not on hormones. I have never formally been diagnosed with GID and I have not had surgery. As far as my identity goes, I am a woman. I have the identity of a woman. Now, if my drivers license says I am a woman? What does that hurt? What if I pass myself off as a woman? So what? How is that a security risk?

Unless I go to jail, where they would find out I have not had surgery anyway, what possible difference could it make? Anyone can dress up as either sex and hide their gender regardless of having a license, how does me having one change anything? Other than it makes me happy.

I think anyone should be able to have their identification reflect their identity. No one would ever think I look like my male drivers license picture. It only creates problems. It's better for everyone that my drivers license match how I appear. As long as it contains my legal name, age, etc. It should not matter to anyone. As long as I am who I say I am.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Kimberly Kael · Post by **Kimberly Kael** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:37 pm

Elizabeth wrote:I am going to have to be the odd girl out here.

No, I'm happy to join you here. I'm definitely with you in believing that gender is a matter of presentation and shouldn't be gated by any kind of subjective assessment, no matter how well intentioned. To start with I'm against the idea that my identity is something I have to get someone else's permission to express. I believe it would further become an issue that would be assessed differently in different parts of the country, making the implementation anything but fair and likely to be subjected to local political pressures. It's not hard to imagine that those with the means to seek out sympathetic practitioners would have an easier time of it, and now it's an economic divider.

Ugh. As you point out I can't see any reason to believe that gender and your choice of presentation in an identifying photograph are security concerns. I'm not sure I understand how having your sex reflected on the license is security-relevant, either, but if you're going to represent your sex rather than your gender I do understand why they'd want it to means something specific.

Here's where I'll gladly back the idea of an explicit TG/TS designation. Figure out what gender means on your license, legally speaking, and do the same for sex. I honestly think both are more advisory than anything and would be happy if all you needed to do was request the designation.

Virginia · Post by **Virginia** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:27 pm

I have not really had time to absorb all I have read and been introduced to, but I want to throw out a few things to ponder.

First, it would be best, I think if we just removed the gender marker from driver's license. That being said, use the example of the traffic stop and you are told to produce, license, registration and proof of insurance. It would behoove one to have the same name on all three documents would it not? You have to separate out the CD/TG/TS from the SRS (and in Virginia the currently required 18 month pre-SRS DL issue.) It also appears that in the Commonwealth each individual "clerk" at the DMV holds sway over the licensee who requests a name and/or gender marker change without supporting documents beyond the court-order name change.

Second, the TS/TG marker is strictly optional so that if you were using a credit card and were asked for a "picture" ID and you produced you DL with the TS/TG marker would that be an embarrassing situation or not to the person. I would assume that if you had gone through the process of getting the document(s) necessary for approval by the DMV that anyone seeing the TS/TG on your license would be of no concern.?

The paranoia that has beset the country since "9-11" has bought about the additional scrutiny of either DL and/or passport pictures.

I remember the time a couple of years ago when Virginia was stopped for doing 32mph in a 25 mph zone, at night! The cop did at least a triple take, shining the light from the license to me and back to the license when I finally smiled and said, "don't even ask!" He was a young guy, of course they all look young to me anymore, anyway, he just went back to his cruiser, wrote the ticket came back handed it to me and said something to the effect, "just slow down, ma'am!" Would a TG/TS marker have made any difference? In that case, no, as I still got a ticket. It did tell me that this particular law enforcement department had had some training in dealing with "us."

The consensus seems to be that education is the solution and I would agree, but what do we do between now and then?? "We" in the TS/TG community that expose ourselves to "the public" are left up to winds of change and as the old saying goes, "youse pays your dime youse takes your chances!"

From the "John Boy and Billy Big Show." "Carry on straight people!!!"

Love,

Virginia

JoAnnDallas · Post by **JoAnnDallas** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:31 am

Here in Texas, one can get a State ID card. It is similar to a drivers license. Can be used for ID on airlines and when need to establish ID. You can have a State ID card and a State drivers license at the same time. One of my Tri-Ess sisters decided to get a State ID for her fem side. She filled out the application, even marked the sex as (M)ale, went to the DMV dressed, got her picture taken, signed the application, and paid the fee. Two weeks later she got her State ID card in the mail. While looking at it she realized that whoever entered the data at the DMV did not look close enough at the application and entered F for the sex. So her state ID card has her male name, address, her fem picture, and F for the sex. She showed to us at one of the meetings.

Virginia · Post by **Virginia** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:26 pm

Latest update on the situation and it still comes up a bit short!

Seems the clerk to whom the person in question was assigned told her that she would have to remove any make-up and jewelery and to pull her hair back. Her description of the picture was that she appears to be "neutral" so to speak.

She wrote a FOIA letter to the Commissioner of the DMV and got a prompt reply. She was shocked that the letter began with "Ms."

There were two separate documents accompanying the letter. The letter itself recommended two different DMV employees to address concerns to. The documents were "Images on DL and ID cards" and Proof of Gender Reassignment Policy"

The cover letter did state, "...there is no specific procedures for transsexual persons to follow to obtain a photograph in their chosen gender prior to medical procedures for legal gender change..."

The "Image..." document does state, "allowing DMV the right to refuse to issue a driver's license or ID card to any applicant who appears for photographing in a disguise..."

In this state, if you move within the state you have a choice of paying ( I think) $10.00 and they will issue you another license with you new address on it or they will simply send you a little piece of paper to carry with your license with your new address and the DMV seal on it. Now I am not an attorney, but when I read the words, "....allowing DMV the right to refuse to issue....." says to me that it is up to the particular office/clerk/supervisor to say yes or no. That being said, I would assume that if I = Virginia went to my local DMV as Virginia and asked for a new license with my correct address on it (which I don't have other than the little piece of paper) they could decide to take my feminine picture with my "boy" name on the license or they could refuse to take the picture. At least that is my take on the "law" as it stands.

I am flip/flopping on the TS/TG marker idea right now, I do think that removing the gender marker would be the ultimate solution, but then you are back to uniformity in name on the license, registration and insurance.
A lot of us look VERY different in male and female mode!!!! So for face recognition for whatever reason it could create a problem I guess.

Love,

Virginia