The wide TG spectrum

General talk about CD/TGing and gender topics that aren't necessarily fun things we do while en femme, or for gender-driven discussions.

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KimberlyS
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The wide TG spectrum

Post by KimberlyS »

Virginia wrote:.....she (Susan Stanton) is really not helping us when she says she has problems with "US" and sees us as "men in dresses."
...........reference Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:00 pm
.......... http://crossdressers-haven.com/forums/v ... php?t=7986


Virgina, I would say my experience is more along what Susan is referencing. It is no secret that I feel passing is not needed if that is not who you are as a CDer/TG. Just a decent feminine presentation/look or even feminine male presentation. My feminine presentation like most TG's and even GG's is better sometimes than others. I often find people surprised when they look at me close enough to see me as a "guy in a dress". But my presentation, attitude and self comfort level seem to quickly put them at ease and I am just treated as a person or customer what ever the case may be. I know for many like yourself you do not want to be seen as a guy wearing femme clothes for a variety of reasons. But that is who I am and who many CDers are. And in my experience people seeing me as a guy wearing femme clothes is acceptable/tolerable what ever term you want to use, to those I am interacting with.

Different people can relate to different things. And while I can not completely relate to some of the drag queen, over the top, fetish type or even the gotta pass types of TG's, if they are out and educating people in the general public and giving them a "decent" exposure to the wide TG spectrum, I think it is great. We talk about the wide TG spectrum but it is like often we are only trying to show the general only a small portion. Most people are tangible and visual. If you want to teach someone about something new to them the best way is to show them, let them see and feel it.

Now before everyone lets me have it. Yes we need to use our heads on how we expose people. I have not walked into work in a skirt. I would not walk into a biker or redneck bar or many other places. At least alone but maybe in a large group. But I have been many places I never thought I would go.

I will take some more flack and say IMHO the gays and lesbians are part of the TG spectrum also. And that we as rest of the TG spectrum already missed the boat once and did not go along with the gay/lesbian movement. There seems to be a TG movement starting to gain momentum where the TG's are the TS's. Are we going to miss that boat also because we are trying to draw lines and farther divide the TG spectrum. We whine include us from behind a wall and they can not see how large of a group we are. Maybe we are not as large of a group as we think we are?

I say group hug, everyone pile into the train and lets show the general public who all of us are??? We are just people like everyone else in the rest of the world. We just like to wear feminine clothes in some way or another. We just do not fit the Masculine Male and Feminine Female society "Norms". Lets break those norms.

I think we need to come up maybe with some creative ways to do some mass education of the general public so some how they can see who we are and that we exist. And I say creative because unlike the gay/lesbian movement where they just had their self to think of. Many of us have families to also look out for and thus need jobs to provide for them.

I do not have all the answers. And I know there is a lot more I could be doing. But if we want more society acceptance of who we are just laws will not do it IMHO. People in general are tangible and visual.

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Amelie-Laveau
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Post by Amelie-Laveau »

I’ll answer by taking bits of what you say and this is only from my mind, I can’t speak for others and I can’t lump everyone in the same boat. I have to use generalizations.

Maybe we are not as large of a group as we think we are?

I think statement is true. True enough that there just aren’t enough TG people to make a difference. When I went to CD bars in NYC they would be lucky if 50 tgirls would be in the bar. Now, this is in a city that has 10 million people and the counties have another couple of million. And it wasn’t like there was lots of competition, there wasn’t. o out of a city of 10 million a cd bar would have 50 girls,, just using the odds” type of thing, there should have been more girls if there were actually more cds than what we believe. I believe, my opinion, there ain’t that many of us out there than what you believe there is.



Many of us have families to also look out for and thus need jobs to provide for them.

This is also a sticky point in trying to come out and be noticed. For some reason that I don’t why, most tgirls create families when they know that somewhere down the line the issue of being a tgirl is going to eat them alive. And when they have these families, little coming out and fighting can be done. So, if you take what I said above about there aren’t really that many of us and then add to the equation that a lot o fus have families that would be in danger if we became vocal. This diminishes how many tgirls can actually do any good to change perceptions. I believe the older generation is done for, in that it can’t really do anything. The hope lies with the younger generations coming up. They can be more open with their feelings than what men could have done in the 50’s or 60’s. They wouldn’t hide their tgirl part, they would be open from the start and maybe the gg’s would be more open to the idea as well so no secrets will have to be kept, that will later haunt them when they get older.



People in general are tangible and visual.

Just because people are this way, doesn’t mean they will accept you or like you. Punks and Goths have been around since the 70’s yet, they are still look upon as fools and idiots. Yes you might say that Goths bring this upon themselves but this would be wrong to say, this would be a prejudice view of lumping all Goths into the same behavior category, just like society lumps all cds as perverts. It doesn’t matter if society sees you, this doesn’t mean they will like you. Sorry, I don’t know what tangible means,,,,,


Wearing of clothes is a strange thing.. Like I said up above, maybe a teen of today can get away being a boy wearing a skirt, this night one day be the norm. But just as it is difficult for a 60 year old man to dress like a punk rock man, it will be difficult for 60 year old man to wear a skirt. The teen might get away with it but as an older man it might not be so. Age might be a factor in how we dress. Society not only puts rules that say a boy wears boys clothes, they also dictate what clothes a person of a certain age should wear, in fact, many cds on these forums say that one should dress appropriately to their age. Even cds have rules on how one should dress, society at large will be the same. Again, it will the youth who will tear down these rules, not the old folk. Sorry bout that,, it’s true.


My personal note: As goth I face idiots all the time, sometimes bad sometimes silly stuff, but I have to face the people everyday. Sometimes I explain to people who I am, sometimes a fight happens, but not too much now, mostly when I was younger. If I wanted to be a goth then I better stand up to people and I did. But I was young, I had no family, and there were others like me that stuck together, gay, straight, male, female, didn’t matter. But I sometimes I don’t see the same unity in tgirls.. Just read posts on all cd forums and you will find that some cds don’t like drag queens,, some ts’s don’t like cds. Some straight cds don’t like gay cds, some cds don’t like slutty cds and the list goes on and on. You lot are a disorganized bunch that basically hate each other in some way. I am not saying that Goths are organized but we did look out for each other in a club and we had a camaraderie when we bumped into each other on the street. But the cds got to throw all prejudices in the garbage before they can even think of fighting for their rights to live the way they want. Gays have done it, look at any gay pride parade and look at all the different style of gays that are represented, some may dislike others but they all stand together when need be. Hell the gays even have straight cds march in their parade.I wonder if the same would be said in reverse, if ever there was a straight cd parade would they allow S&M gay men to march with them? I wonder?

The best thing to do is to create safe areas. Sort of like how the gays do when they all live and shop in the same area. I don’t mean all cds should move together but it’s not a bad idea. What I mean is take over places and make them YOURS. Find a part of the city that accept\s you and as many cds shop and hang out there as possible, find a bar or club and just go there in numbers, make it yours. You don’t need a special cd bar, make any bar yours. There were these kids in NYC called “Club Kids” they would take any place and make it their club, they even took a Macdonalds and took over the place as their club, OK this is a bit out of it but you get the idea.
Use the gay areas as yours,, you all don’t have to organize to do this, just go to one area, in that way there will always be one of your kind in the same street as you. As punks we did this by taking over parts of the East Village in NYC. Not all punks lived there but punks came from everywhere just to be there and there was always a punk walking the same street as me. Safety in numbers. But it also creates a fun place to be,, shop owners and club owners saw all the punks, so clubs and shops opened up to cater to them, the same can be said of tgirls, If you have an area that is yours, then people will bring business that caters to you. Just like the gays,, why do you think there are so many antique stores in gay areas.. Money is to be made of any group.
But I think this can only be done by the younger tgirls but they might be so open with their tgirlnes that they won’t see the need for unity like we do. They will just merge with let’s say other types like Goths or something new that might come along. Just like some younger gays don’t see the need for the GLBT org, they can live without it, though they owe a lot of thanks to the older gays, who were young at the time they fought for their rights.


Also, I hate all cds that are different than me,, so i won't join this fight,,,,lol
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Post by Virginia »

Hi Girls,

Ah, the CD's Continuum and where each of us find ourselves on it and of course those of our sisters who are "just passing through" on their way to SRS.

I can only speak for myself as I know who and what I am and I love it! I am what I can only define as a NOTS = a non-Operation Transsexual. Or I guess my favorite way of putting it, "I am Virginia and Virginia is me!" Beyond that, I have found "my balance" and as I am fond of saying I and my SO are thoroughly enjoying our "Magical Mystery Tour!"

As for going out, I have two basic goals, one is to "blend-in" and the other is to look good doing it!

I am a participant in Equity Virginia, the legislative arm of the GLTB in the Commonwealth of Virginia. And, yes Amelie is correct, there is a bit of angst among the various factions that make up this organization as it was only recently that "we" even obtained representation on the Board of Directors and that seat is held by a girl who has completed SRS. At a recent meeting, in one of the "break-out" sessions for the first time a session was held for "us" and several gays and lesbians were kind enough to sit in and we did discuss "the old days." Again Amelie is correct, they, the gays and lesbians do harbor some (sic, well founded) dislike for us. Why!? We all know why, because when they, the gays and lesbians, were out shedding their blood in the streets, where were we, in fact where are we now? Well, except for a few of us (no offense to any of my sisters - PLEASE!!!!) most of us remain well closeted, even again as Amelie points out go into any T-girl bar and count the attendees?

I would beg to differ with the number, I do think that there are a lot more of us than we may think, but until science develops something along the range of "Gaydar" and we could call it????? "Tgar" that would "scope us out," our numbers will remain controversial.

What we are about here is a sounding board, a confessional and I guess in some cases a sanitarium and we are here to help each other deal with this GIFT we have and help each other to use it in a way that best benefits the, the , the ?owner? of the gift.

In conclusion, I will do whatever I can within my power to help any of my sisters, however I am who I am, I have found my balance, I love my Magical Mystery Tour. That being said.............................

Ms. Amelie, this gal can still put on a mini-skirt, go out in it, pass and look good doing it and at my age........... well let's just say, I am old enough!!!

Love you all and remember,


Go forth Woman and BE!!!!

Virginia
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Post by KimberlyS »

Amelie, thank you for your response. This seems to either be a topic that others do not want to talk about. It would be interesting to know why? Maybe my reality is a lot different from most others here? Maybe acceptance is not really a goal of most here? Maybe someone has a magic wand that will make society instantly accepting?

I do not have the answers. But acceptance will not come without action. And acceptance does not come from legislation.
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Post by KimberlyS »

Virginia, I know you and SL are out their and were involved some how in pushing legislation. I guess often it seems we are preaching to the choir. People do not realize there is so many little things that can be done. And the best place to do things that stretch us is not near home.
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Post by Absaroka »

Amelie I really liked the analogy of a 60 year old man trying to look like a punk. I think this illustrates just how many and varied the rules are. The idea of enclaves was also interesting.

When I was in high school ( shortly after the discovery of fire) there was a boy who wanted to make a statement about noncomformity. This was in the late 60's and the middle class white kids all had the idea that non conformity amounted to looking sort of like a hippie. With the result that about a quarter of the school looked vaguely like hippies. The Italian and Black kids of course had different rules.

So anyway he wore a coat and tie to school for a week, which at the time was something only the Black kids ever did. However he was not percieved as acting Black, merely as looking like a total nerd. Which was what he intended.

What was surprising was just how viscerally some people reacted to this relatively innocous breaking of the rules.

I always respected him for this and it really made me think.

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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

Hmmm... many fine and interesting posts, here. Thanks, y'all.

Having the advantage, even at my age, of not being long out of university (i.e., long after the discovery of fire but shortly before the mainstreaming of internet access), I had the advantage of being openly trans (though not visibly so) in a student body where everyone was openly SOMEthing, especially gay. I've had many, many discussions with gay classmates and friends (many of whom are friends, still) and the most common conclusion/answer/reason given for the "Great GLB/T Divide" is not that we (transfolk) remained passively by the sidelines while our homosexual brothers and sisters fought tooth and nail to have their rights acknowledged and respected but, rather, simply enough, that we are heterosexual, not homosexual. Ergo, we did not participate in their battle. Ergo, they now wish they did not have to participate in ours. I'm not saying whether I disagree with this conclusion--only that it's what I most often heard said in the Queer ranks.

I just finished reading the feature article (and cover story) of the Dec. 18 2007 issue of The Advocate (issue #999) entitled, "Gay vs. Trans: The Great Divide? 10 Real People Face Off." Although the article is intended as "mini-townhall roundtable" discussion in the wake of the ENDA fiasco? success?, it's very revealing about gay attitudes toward transness and vice versa.

On the panel (or, actually, at the cafe where the group interview was conducted): a gay couple (one half of which is a very androgynous looking man), a gay man and a trans woman who are also a couple, a lesbian and a bisexual woman who are a couple, two single trans men, and two single trans women. I found that, at one point, one of the transfolk made a very astute remark: gays and lesbians often overlook the fact that, when they (gays and lesbians) are discriminated against, it's not on the basis of their being gay or lesbian, but on the basis of their appearing to be gay or lesbian. In order to prove her point, she brings in (amongst other things) the fact that, in the GLB personal ads, the seeker is often concerned that the responder be able to act or to appear straight. Thus, her argument is that discrimination towards any member of the GLB and T community always has to do with self-expression, presentation, and gender (non-)conformity. According to her, in the face of this, there is no valid reason for ENDA (and for the gay and lesbian community) to exclude transgendered individuals from its purview (or from its membership). Methinks she has a damn good point.

But it gets more complicated. We've talked about this before, on the forum, but it surfaces in The Advocate article, too; much of the fiercest discrimination towards both homosexuals and the transgendered comes from within the homosexual community itself. Personally, this has been my own experience as well. I know many gays who wish nothing more than to go "stealth" (in the same way a post-op TS will often want to) simply in order to fit better into mainstream society; these "straight-appearing" gays and lesbians (by and large, the majority) often loathe flamboyant "gayness" (whether that flamboyance be gay or, in fact, straight) because--through simple association in the mind of John Q. Public--it pushes them further away from their goal of being socially accepted. Please note that, in the case of gays and lesbians, "going stealth" (being invisible) does not mean the same as "being closeted" (being alone in one's knowledge of one's true sexual orientation). You can be the most decidedly and resolutely homosexual person on earth and still not "look the part." Crossdressers and transsexuals, on the other hand (and barring some stunning exceptions), usually do "look the part." Hence, many of the GLB's ain't too happy with being associated with the T's. A gay man who doesn't look gay can walk down the street without much fear of being harrassed; a man who looks like "a guy in a dress" (whether he be gay or straight) puts himself at risk. And the risk is twofold: a) he exposes himself to a possible gay- or trans-bashing event and, b) he puts the entire GLBT community in the public eye, reinforcing, in the minds of straight and single-gendered people, the completely inaccurate notions that to be gay is to be a swishy male and that, conversely, to be transgendered is to be gay. These are not automatic connections. And they are exactly the connections that many in the gay and lesbian community wish to distance themselves from. Why? Again, because they seek mainstream approval and acceptance. That approval and acceptance would serve to thwart discrimination, on the one hand, and to simply make the lives of gays and lesbians that much easier, on the other.

Again, please note that I'm not talking about activists, here (whether gay, lesbian, bi, or trans). I'm talking about those of us who, though we may, in fact, be gay, lesbian, bi, or trans, choose (for many different reasons... yes, including simple fear) to avoid public scrutiny. Usually, activists (whether gay, lesbian, bi, or trans) will be the very last people on earth to condemn, or discriminate against, members of their own community. Unless, of course, we're talking about "backward discrimination"... in this case, the oft heard criticism--coming from within the GLBT community itself--that those gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transfolk who remain in stealth mode do the entire GLBT community a disservice by choosing to not put themselves in the public eye. This criticism has always struck me as a strange one. We each try to "educate" in our own way--some do so through extremely local action (say, by being oneself, in as subtle a way as one can, with a spouse or family members and close friends) while others feel the need to deliver some well aimed slaps to society-at-large by being "in-your-face" about their sexual orientation and/or gender identity. Frankly, I'm not so sure that we benefit the GLBT community by valuing one type of action over and above the other; doing so restricts our options and, at this stage of the game, we need all our options available to us... from the deeply, deeply closeted writer who'll have a defiantly non-gender-conformist short story published, to the GenderPAC wildcat who'll aim to crush anything that stands in the way of the full social freedom of self-expression. Anyway, just through conversation with my totally "vanilla" and "white bread" friends and acquaintances, I'm not so sure the "in-your-face" approach to both self-disclosure and freedom of gender self-expression works any better than the slow, methodical, sure-footed, confident, painstaking, yet personal approach.

In the end, like everything else, it remains a personal choice. What we, in the GLBT community, need to do now, is to respect each other's personal choices in this regard. This is what will bring us closer. Both to our common goal as well as to each other.

Great thread. Thanks for starting it, Kim. 8)

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CJ
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Post by CJ »

Hi all,

I realize my post above is a wee bit tangential to the matter Kimberly put forward in her original post but, having just re-read my post above, I also realize that everything I said about gays and lesbians regarding their associations with transfolk applies, too, to the relations transfolk have to each other from within the transgender community itself. It still all holds true.

Put a super passable stealth-mode post-op bisexual TS, a totally flamboyant gay drag queen, and a run-of-the-mill straight crossdresser with a five o'clock shadow and hairy legs in a lineup and all three will have at least one thing in common: if out in the public eye, they can become the targets of "gender vigilantes," suffering discrimination--institutionalized or not--because of the way they transgress traditional gender boundaries. Stealth mode is an attempt to mask that transgression.

And, here, we face at least two ways of going about effecting change in the world around us. If we're not passable, we can use our "unpassability" as a tool to flaunt our gender difference and become activists (or, at least, idiosyncratic originals)--a decision fraught with peril in a world where gender transgressions are unwelcome; if we're passable without a hitch (and this usually happens more--but not exclusively--on the TS end of the TG spectrum), then the choices are a little broader and the alternatives a little more palatable, in that we can choose to "stealth it" and live a quiet life, removed from (TG) political affiliations, or we can participate in the front lines of mass education and political change. Again, it's a personal choice. And it's a choice, I think, that relates both to temperament as well as to appearance.

The preoccupation many transsexuals (and crossdressers, too, of course) have with passability stems from the implicit assumption that it's a good thing to be able to be seen as either one sex or the other. I favor a different kind of "passing"... passing not as a man or as a woman but as a fully individualized self, regardless of what sex (if any) I choose to align my gender expression with. Kate Bornstein, for example, has become an expert at this. In other words, I think many, many people in the TG community are as bound by a "binary gender logic" as are regular folks. Sometimes, it's sad to see. I know of a post-op transsexual (a very feminine-looking one, by the way) who's so desperately unhappy with this or that detail of her appearance that every slightest imperfection or flaw (and she regularly discovers new ones) will send her running, screaming and crying, to the various psychiatric hospitals and community resources. It's simply a matter of course that such people will choose to not associate themselves with hairy-legged crossdressers made up like 15 year old tarts. Again, though, both the passable stealth TS and the almost burlesque unpassable CD both have in common the fact that, as gender transgressors, they stand in harm's way. This is the common rallying point (the very point ENDA chose to throw in the garbage by surgically removing the "T" in "GLBT"). That rallying point ought to unite us, even in the face of any other type of division, whether based on appearance, presentation, sexual orientation, or temperamental inclinations.

Funny thing: my SO is in charge of, amongst other things, finding a way to help the city organize its annual GLBTF (for "Friends") Pride Parade now that Divers-Cité, the gay cultural association hitherto in charge of the event, has elected to distance itself from it for ideological reasons. Seems Divers-Cité (a very influential organization) is none too happy with the more flamboyant and trans aspects of the parade. Surprised? Not me. The last couple of years Divers-Cité was in charge of the event, it relegated it to a different, less visible circuit throughout the downtown core and held it on a weeknight rather than on a weekend afternoon as used to be the case. If it had its way, I assume, Divers-Cité would organize a GLBTF Pride Parade that consisted of seven people all dressed in business suits. And they'd have it march at 3:30 am.

The divisions run deep, folks. It's time for a Transgender Pride Parade. For many reasons already stated in quite a few of the posts above, that's unlikely to happen, I think. Too bad.

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CJ
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Post by KimberlyS »

CJ, great posts. I like your statement:

"I think many, many people in the TG community are as bound by a 'binary gender logic' as are regular folks."

I very much agree with this. From day one we are born, we are taught and conditioned many things by those around us and society. It is not nature that classifies us as male and female, it is society. Because if you look at all animals in nature including humans, the gray area often referred to as the "Gender Spectrum" exists naturally in all animals. Being a farm boy I have seen a male cow with teats and a bag, and a boar that looked like it could nurse a litter of pigs. According to the AMERICAN JOURNAL OF LAW AND MEDICINE, Volume 30, Number 1: Pages 41-68,
Summer 2004, "Between 1.7 and 4% of the world population is born with intersex conditions, having primary and secondary sexual characteristics that are neither clearly male nor female". These are just the ones physically classified as intersexed at birth. And does not include many others found out later to be intersexed or those on the margins having "hormone" other related issues. Or does not include any TG/TS/CD (4-9%), gay or lesbian people (2-10%). But I digressed.

I firmly believe from first being born and before, we are absorbing knowledge around us that will make us who we are. Being a parent some of the type of things my kids heard in those first minutes, first days after birth were like:

- its a girl, no extra parts.
- its a boy, it has something hanging between its legs.
- this is blue, do we have a pink hat for its head. It is a girl.
- look at all of that pretty dark wavy hair, it must be a girl.
- it must be a boy with the football on his shirt.
- that is a boy and that is a girl, you can tell by the blue and pink blankets.
- he is a big boy, he will be a football player some day.
- he has a strong grip.
- look at the big arms on him, he will grow up big and strong.
- she has a strong grip, for a girl.
- she is so fragile.
- she looks so pretty in that dress.
- nice truck on his shirt.
- he is a boy he can take it, as the foreskin is cut off the penis with nothing to numb it. (ever wonder where the "take it like a man" comes from. Or maybe why we do.)

And those are just a few things of the many that were said in some way the first few days after birth. And this continues as we grow. No wonder we think only 'binary gender logic'. It is deeply ingrained into who we are as a person. And why so many of us TG's struggle with who we are. And why we try to fit in to sex and gender roles that we do not fit into nice and neatly. And why much of society has trouble understanding us TG's.

I know I struggled as a person that did not fit neatly into either side. And presenting a feminine male image to the public was not easy at first. But it is funny what personal acceptance of ourselves can do to us. And explains some why in mid 30's after keeping my feminine bottled up and mostly in check, it came screaming out.

I challenge people to look within their self. Are you trying to be the masculine male or feminine female person that society expects you to be? Or are you being the person who you are?

And yes there are many times fitting with in the society general guidelines are greatly to our benefit. At what point for you does fitting in overtake who you are. And you start fighting back.

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Post by Carolynn »

Oh wow, you all have taken a worm and worried it pretty well. CJ, as usual, your perspective on the whole pretty well mirrors many others, and it is a political worm to be well pecked where the so called GLBT "alliance" is concerned. And Amelie, your point about the future coming from the young is hopeful, though you will find variance in thought among the current crop of young as well, at least on the TS side. And KimberlyS, thanks, I think, for bringing up this topic. I held for a long time the view that gender variance is a continuum, largely affected by the writings of Dr. Carl Bushong. (http://www.doctorbushong.com/pubs/what_is_gender.asp -if you are not acquainted with them).

I continue to consider a continuum likely but would not include homosexuality as that is talking about apples and oranges. The gender continuum is about self identity, while a gay orientation is about whom you find sexually attractive. It has nothing to do with the sense of self, of being a man or a woman, except in so far as you ally yourself with an interest group, not too different from joining a church to find a suitable mate. That is qualitatively different from gender identity.

CJ you have brought up the gulf between the GLB and T. I want to state here, categorically, that it has been my experience with other TS of my direct acquaintence that, depending on passability, they really do not want anything less than to flip to the other side of the gender binary, and blend in and forget as much as possible the years of fear and depression they have lived with. After feeling alienated for sooooo long from "normative society", it becomes part of the angst that can lead to suicide, and mental illnesses that make the depth of their Gender Dysphoria even more difficult to deal with. Activism is the LAST thing many of these people want to be involved with, and that is one of the major differences that the GLB seem not to understand.

Complicating that is the fact that almost 30% of M2F TS wind up in lesbian relationships post operatively, some with gg and a few with other post-op TS, and there are a few F2M TS that call themselves gay men (but this route is hard as they do not have the boy parts that other gay men find attractive--their surgeries are not sophisticated enough to provide them with usefull "tools"). If these people become activist with the GLBT, they ally themselves with the groups they percieve themselves to be, Lesbian or Gay, not T.

And this leads to part of the root of the problem.

What is called TS or Gender Identity Disorder as is currently called, is not about sexual orientation, its about very basic self identity, who we are. I know that is a hard concept for people to understand. The anomalous difference between who we know ourselves to be, and what we have to face in the mirror every pre-op day is far different from any of the Gay and Lesbian people I have heard describe themselves. Most gay males share the interests and insights of any straight male, only differing in who they find sexually attractive. Many in the gay community tell each other (without trying to understand) that TS are really gays in denial, that TS as a thing does not exist and we are just being silly. And that is sooooo wrong it makes me want to vomit that even these so called allies can't understand any better than a "normative" male in the gender binary, and less readily than many normative females.

Our pre-transition life is not the same as being in the closet about who you find attractive. Nor does it have any realtionship to playing dressup once in a while, for whatever purpose. It is the need to be living day in and day out as the woman or man you know yourself to be, and being desperate enough finally to risk EVERYTHING, job, family, friends, to feel RIGHT. People who consider the TG umbrella to be their descriptor for the most part take off their glad rags, and change to an outwardly male personality for their day to day tasks and are not interested in changing their identity and are mostly satisfied with their sexual organs.

Self identity is not fluid for a TS, as it can be for a crossdresser, gender queer, or drag queen. I KNEW I was a little girl by the time I was three years old, and I was just sure I would grow up a physical girl, and bitterly disappointed that I didn't. To the point I tried to engineer "accidents" that would get rid of that damned thing between my legs that did not belong by the time I was 10 and 11. Had my bicycle taken away from me for having so many accidents. My guilt at betraying the wishes of my parents and family made an accident necessary so it wouldn't "be my fault". So I tried to bury my self identity, but never could. It was always there and I grew up as a woman in a male physique. Not recommended

Gender Identity Disorder is one of the few "mental" illness that can be "cured" (for many) by medical procedures, operations. Homosexuality was removed from the DSM as a natural variation in human sexuality, and there is no cure needed (nor ever abailable) for the GLB. And very few TS who have some surgeries to better suit them for their new role, to be more acceptable and less at risk, are like the person you mentioned, CJ, who is obsessed with appearance to the point of becoming a plastic surgery junkie. But I assure you she is not the only woman to be that way. There are GGs who are equally obsessed, and the obsession is a completley different kind of problem of self perception. But if it occurs, just as you seemed to have concluded CJ, -- to someone with a transsexual past, then that past is automatically the cause and may just be as biased and plain wrong as other statements I have heard and read by people who genuinely "do not get it"!

One other thing and then I will quit rambling. Kimberly your subject was the TG spectrum. The term TransGender was coined to more accurately reflect the condition that had been called TransSexual and was to be interchangable, theraputically, until it was ruled on by the Harry Benjamin Assoiciation. Since we were not transiting sexual orientation, but switching permanently our Gender, TransGender was, like transsexual originally, to apply to a (hopefully) short period of time when our bodies were in a state of flux between genders, during therapy, HRT, public identity change, and RLE, not to be a permanent descriptor or self identifier for the rest of our lives. In part it was to distinguish ourselves from the crap Jerry Springer and his ilk put on the television and called transsexual.

For all the good it did. Almost as soon as it came out, it was co-opted by every gender variant person or group to describe themselves even though it does not reflect anything about them. It just sounded better than crossdresser, transvestite, drag queen or gender queer to many people, and then the GLB latched on to it too and got some people who considered themselves activists to help them legitimize it to include the T, so they could try to gather in all the gender variant folks for a political base. Of course, that does not mean any one under the umbrella really belongs, and they can and will be dropped for political expediency as occurred with ENDA. That by the way, was strike 3 in my experience, the third time we were rewarded for support by betrayal by the GLB. They can whistle for support for their wishes in the future, so far as I am concerned.

Few among TS really consider themselves as TG anymore and have fallen back on TS, since TG has become an umbrella term. To make matters worse, recent state legislation in Oregon, Florida and other states have equated gender with sexual orientation, for political expediency.

And during transition, TS folks do not consider themselves T-girls, or chicks with dicks, or any of the other little names applied by and popularized by pornography. If that satisfies any one in other groups, then so be it.

People called TS are men and women with birth defects like other intersex conditions in their naturalness, conditions that span cultures, and national boundaries in about the same percentages per population. The scope of the defects may be difficult and expensive to overcome, so much so you have to be desperate enough to either do or die. Yeah Amelie, it might be that the future will be soooooo much better with more freedom to dress as who you are, say about 3010 A.D. maybe. Hope it's sooner, but I can't wait that long.

Love to all, Carolynn
"It’s not given to anyone to have no regrets; only to decide, through the choices we make, which regrets we’ll have,"
David Weber – In Fury Born
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Post by Lucy Michelle »

An interesting debate.

Theres a lack of unity within the t community whether dismissing cders as those who go out in 5 inch heals and short skirts, a nasty comment about those on television (there were remarks about the subjects on sex-change hospital from other t-girls for example which I found distasteful).

If people cant get help, advice and support from others in the spectrum what chance is there in advancing our cause. Somehow its more acceptable to be a nudist and wander outside naked than to be dressed because we're associated by many with perversion.

I'm personally in the wear what you want be who you want to be whether that be a drag king, m2f, f2m, a goth girl, so on and enjoy the differences.
Last edited by Lucy Michelle on Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kimberly Kael
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Post by Kimberly Kael »

Whew! I'm sorry I didn't weigh in earlier on the subject as it's near and dear to me - but I see many of my thoughts have been represented already. I'll try not to be too repetitive but I did want to contribute something to the conversation.

I'm in complete agreement with KimberlyS that we each fall somewhere on a broad spectrum and not into a few distinct, well-defined states of being. This immediately leads to terminology challenges since it seems that as a species we have a built-in need to define and classify. It's disappointing that people who rail against the restrictive definitions of "male" and "female" would seek to redress the balance by creating equally restrictive definitions of "transgender", "transsexual", etc.

I find it sad that some people fall into the us-versus-them trap of supporting diversity only on their own terms. Personally, I'm a supporter of individualism and will gladly support the broad spectrum of GLBT issues. Sure, I'll choose to spend more of my time on the issues that affect me directly - but I wish everyone well who seeks to broaden society's range of acceptance. I honestly think that the hard-fought acceptance of gay and lesbian rights benefits me even though they didn't tackle my specific issues for me.
~ Kimberly

“To escape criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." - Elbert Hubbard
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Virginia
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Post by Virginia »

And the debate goes on! The beauty of it is that reading the above posts, shows that those seeking knowledge are intelligent, articulate and well read on the subject.

CJ's reference to "The Advocate" and the article in question is interesting in that perhaps "our" lack of participation in the Gay/Lesbian quest for recognition by not "bleeding in the streets" with them was/is not the central cause for their lack of support for us, that it could be something that we just have no control over. They are gays and lesbians and we are mostly heterosexual, thus the conflict. Whether "we" as group support their efforts or not, they, the gays and lesbians consciously or sub consciously lump us in with all heterosexuals that put up roadblocks to their acceptance by "society." We are further ostracized because we "choose" to "dress funny."

I guess it is kind of like what we portend to be, admire, seek, that being a GG. When she rolls out of bed in the morning and her feet hit the floor she is a GG -period!!!!!! The same holds true for gays and lesbians when they awake in the morning they are who they are by birth sex, male or female and it is their desire to remain such. We on the other hand roll out of bed in conflict with ourselves, some more conflicted than others, but still in conflict. Do I dress, do I not? Do I dress and go out among the "great unwashed?" Am I content to simply dress and hide from the world. Someone actually wants me to put on my "battle dress" go outside and link arms with others of my ilk and walk down the street, carrying a sign that defends my right to put on a dress once in a while??? What?! are you crazy!!! My family, my job, my friends, my religion, - yeah your nuts if you expect that from me!!!!!

And the struggle continues - are we nuts? Well I think not as do a lot of professionals now coming to the realization that actually having "the gift" is pretty cool!!!

We will struggle on and hopefully find some solace in our own "Magical Mystery Tour."

Love,

Virginia
First star to the right, then straight on 'till mornin!
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Anita
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Post by Anita »

This is a good discussion, on the part of everyone involved. The summaries of GLB vs. Trans conflicts from CJ and Carolyn were especially helpful for me.

It's unfortunate that there's only so much time and energy available to us. It sometimes makes it hard for us to take an interest in anything or anyone that doesn't directly help guarantee our survival.

I really dislike the times when I feel so exhausted by life that I can't be bothered by anything but work, meals and sleep, but it happens. At those times, I have no energy for diversity--I want people who are the line of least resistance for me. Other cultures, beliefs, or ways of doing things don't interest me. I've barely got the motivation to wash the dishes. let alone focus on someone else's point of view.

Only work issues can force me out of this kind of narrowness, and that's partly why I became a support group facilitator. It makes me focus on different parts of the transgender spectrum, and also some of the gay and lesbian communities, too.

But I will note here that it's tough for people with different attitudes about dressing to go out with one another. JB is a member of our forum, and he only dresses femme from the waist down. He's clearly a man in a dress. Many members of my TG group do not want to be seen with such a person, even if they like JB personally. It's just too risky for them. Some are stealth, and others just don't want the hassles that go with that.

I am glad that my own post-op friends do not balk at going out with me, but it is certainly not a given in our community. There are at least four women I know who are in stealth, and I'd be doing them an unkindness by ever going near them in public if I were dressed femme.

Those are extremes, but the two factors work together to limit our acceptance of each other. Many people are exhausted by life on a steady basis, and it's not conducive to being open to others. And many in our community feel that we have to defend our own turf, and other GBLT people make it rough for us to do so. If your friends confuse your fulltime TG lifestyle with the sarcastic drag queens they see on TV, it's going to hurt. If you're a heterosexual CD who finally decides to tell your friends, and they automatically label you as gay, it's hard to see gay men as allies right at that moment.

But, yeah, Kimberly, acceptance within the community is certainly not a given. You can press a hot button when you talk about going out in less than binary fashion--either male or female. I've said that I don't know whether I'm doing female for my comfort, society's comfort, or a combination of both. Something within me needs to do full expression of one gender or the other, and nothing in between. At the same time, I can go out with JB and not have a problem with it. It takes energy, though--back to that again!
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Jeannie
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Post by Jeannie »

Hi Ladies
I know you will blast me but get a grip! We're misfits! You can go back and forth with all kinds of theories and opinions but you will always come back to the same place. A man in a dress. Being accepted or being mainstream is a pipe dream Ladies. It's never going to happen.
Most women find us creepy and men want to kick the crap out of us. My wife Mini's best friend Candace called me after I told Mini about me three years ago and said" If you were my husband I would of knocked you out or killed you! You should tell a woman exactly what you are when you meet them" I felt so special.
Then Candace's friend Ken, who went to West Point,20 years in the military and is Gay told me " I want a man to look like a man. You're a pervert". Thanks for sharing that with me Ken Doll.
Just remember what my friend Gary always told me." People are all out of their freakin' minds." Just be yourself for whatever reason and go about your day. If others don't like it,screw em'. Why spend money on counseling when you could use the cash to buy a new outfit?
Getting older creates clarity. Trust me. You'll get there. I know! I'll leave you with a verse from a Lyle lovett song"If I had a boat"

The mystery masked man was smart
He got himself a Tonto
Tonto did the dirty work for free

But Tonto he was smarter
One day said kemosabi
Kiss my backside
I bought a boat
I'm going out to sea

Smooth sailing girls. Hugs.

Love
Auntie Jeannie
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